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Crates and Strokers...What engine upgrade should I do...

rocket 5979 said:
Tmsoko---what are you talking about the imbalance for? Shortblock 302 is a shortblock 302 is a shortblock 302. Stroker or not, the harmonic balancer can be replaced. A full shortblock already assembled should be balanced anyways if done right. If you rely upon the harmonic damper to solely balance things then problems will arise.

I have to disagree with this. A short block is not a shortblock, etc.. A stock 302 short block from ~'84 on is a 50oz imbalance, corrected to perfect balance by the damper and flexplate or flywheel. The FRPP shortblocks a 28oz imbalance and require matching 28oz imbalance damper/flexplate. High RPM engines are setup for 0oz imbalance or internal balance, which do not require the external damper or flex plate to correct. It is much cheaper to final balance externally than internal, thus the 50 and 28oz setups. You can see what I mean by this when you look at a damper and see more steel on one side than the other. The explorer damper is 50oz imbalance and cannot be used on a 28 or 0 oz stroker setup. "Balancing" and engine involves the entire system, crank, rods, pistons, damper, and flexplate. This system is balanced to 0 overall, but can use 50, 28, or 0 oz components within the system. If you used an FRPP assembled shortblock stroker kit with the explorer 50oz damper, you will be in for a world of hurt!
 



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Any high stress engine should be balanced using all of the components, including any balancer and flexplate/flywheel. The proper balancer is only critical in a bolt on application where you mix parts, and don't rebalance the rotating assembly. These are general guidelines which apply to all engines. Good luck,
DonW
 






That was my point. The shortblock from FRPP is pre-balanced and ready for 28oz damper / flexplate combo. You would have to disassemble, re-balance ($200+) and re-assemble to use the stock Explorer damper. Need to be careful when buying a shortblock to specify 50oz imbalance to ensure you can bolt up without need for re-balance.
 






DonDub,
So you are saying you would scrap the eaton after getting the chip flashed then install the Kenne Bell? AM I understanding you correctly? I must say that you all are very creative. I have made note of all of ya'lls suggestions. Keep the feedback coming.
Duke
 






tmsoko said:
I have to disagree with this. A short block is not a shortblock, etc.. A stock 302 short block from ~'84 on is a 50oz imbalance, corrected to perfect balance by the damper and flexplate or flywheel. The FRPP shortblocks a 28oz imbalance and require matching 28oz imbalance damper/flexplate. High RPM engines are setup for 0oz imbalance or internal balance, which do not require the external damper or flex plate to correct.



Yes there are differences with stock engines. There are differences with modified engines. But with a modified race engine you will want as little stress as possible on the front of the crank or anywhere in between. If your going to be getting a 347 you should be revving it high to use the power and breathing it should have. So it would only be logical to get an internally balanced shortblock or have on balanced after you buy it. Putting a damper on there is an ok cheap fix to a simple problem for stock cars. But for a race application you will want a properly balanced engine from the inside out if you will realistically expect it to last a decent amoung of time. Even if the fella was to get an engine setup for a different balancer it would be no big feat to get a different balancer for that engine. Or order stuff for a mustang 5.0 with the 4R70W tranny and pull the plate from that. It is still no big deal to swap em out. In the scope of what the project would be that would be a comparatively very minor detail that could be ironed out in spare time.
 






Big Duke said:
DonDub,
So you are saying you would scrap the eaton after getting the chip flashed then install the Kenne Bell? AM I understanding you correctly? I must say that you all are very creative. I have made note of all of ya'lls suggestions. Keep the feedback coming.
Duke


I think what he said is burn the chip for the new eaton combo and then later when you installed the KB then burn the chip again. I would add on, of course, both with a dyno tune. You could make quite alot of power with the KB setup as long as you got some really really really high flowing heads. After all those chargers are used to being used on 4 valve and on GT's at least 2 valve engines. So as long as you got the air flow through the heads it may make some decent power.
 






rocket 5979 said:
Yes there are differences with stock engines. There are differences with modified engines. But with a modified race engine you will want as little stress as possible on the front of the crank or anywhere in between. If your going to be getting a 347 you should be revving it high to use the power and breathing it should have. So it would only be logical to get an internally balanced shortblock or have on balanced after you buy it. Putting a damper on there is an ok cheap fix to a simple problem for stock cars. But for a race application you will want a properly balanced engine from the inside out if you will realistically expect it to last a decent amoung of time. Even if the fella was to get an engine setup for a different balancer it would be no big feat to get a different balancer for that engine. Or order stuff for a mustang 5.0 with the 4R70W tranny and pull the plate from that. It is still no big deal to swap em out. In the scope of what the project would be that would be a comparatively very minor detail that could be ironed out in spare time.

I thought someone mentioned using a FRPP shortblock. It is already assembled and balanced for use with 28oz damper and flexplate. The only reason to buy a shortblock is to short circuit the machine shop stage - basically a quick solution. There is no reason to buy an already assembled shortblock, then pull apart and re-balance.

As for dampers, they are not cheap fixes. All V8 engines need dampers to dampen out harmonic vibrations due to V-Angle and firing order. There are only two engine combinations that are "perfectly" harmonically balanced - I6 and V12. (H6 engines may, but it has been ~8 years since I was involved in engine therory, so can't remember for sure.) All other engines require a damper to reduce the harmonic vibrations from the firing sequence. Even on a 0oz imbalance, the damper is a critical component. A Romac, or similar high quality damper is always used.

Now, as far as zero balance, you need that for high RPM running. If you are going to be using an automatic, you will not be high in RPM, due to torque converter limitations.

I am building a 349ci stroker for my Ranger right now. The only reason I am balancing to 0oz is for re-sale of the short block. It is a Boss 302 block, Trickflow crank, Oliver rods, and Ross pistons. This will make a great combo for me as well as mustang racers. If figure if I decide to go to a 351W based stroker in the future, it would be easier to sell as a 0oz balance, as anyone spending the kind of cash on this would be probably drag race high RPM.

In order to run other than 50oz imbalance with the explorer engine, you need to do several mods. The explorer damper is one piece assembly of the damper, DIS exciter ring, and crank pulley. In order to run the explorer acessories, you will need to get a 28oz or 0oz damper and have a machine shop make an adapter to run a 94-95 mustang "GT" (not cobra) crank pulley turned backwards and adapt the Explorer DIS trigger wheel on the front side of the crank pulley. Also need to make a spacer for the crank sensor to move out to meet with the trigger wheel. Finally need to get a Powerdyne fan spacer ($85) or run an electric fan to provide running room for the trigger wheel forward of the crank pulley. While this is no rocket sience, it is not something you are going to turn around in a day or pick up at the speed shop. All Custom. I have gotten a Romac 6.2" OD damper and have completed about 75% of the parts necessary to complete this stage. One spacer for the sensor, two piece pulley/trigger adaptor, with roll pin locator for the trigger and shuffle pin locator for the adaptor, requiring drilling into the Romac. A machine shop would charge at least $200-300 for this work, based on time involved.
 






CDW6212R said:
Big Duke, here's a more realistic dream: Have an intake custom made to mount a new Cobra intake onto. Modify a new Cobra Eaton supercharger to mount to the intake(lengthen the snout).
Have the AODE(best description) rebuilt with a TransGo shift kit, high quality frictions and steels, and the "A" overdrive servo parts(3).
Buy all of the Lightning/Cobra support parts: MAF, injectors, fuel pumps, etc. Get it all installed and running with a proper chip or flasher.
Upgrade the exhaust to support the larger volume of air. The whole system should be scrapped(The Torque Monster headers are still too small). Build better headers(1.625" primaries, 2.5" collectors).
Then change the engine for a 347 built for the supercharger. Change the pulley to the Lightning pulley, which may require bigger injectors, MAF. Retune it, then change to a modified Kenne Bell supercharger, and fine tune it once more.
The final result should be well over 500HP at the wheels, streetable and repeatable.

Of course upgrade the suspension and brakes before you get deep into the project. Expect problems along the way, but when done it should be as reliable as any stock Cobra or Lightning. Good luck,
DonW

I am actually doing this right now. I am going about it slightly differently though. Check out my picture page for a few early pictures of my plans:

http://groups.msn.com/RangerKB/shoebox.msnw?Page=3

I am mounting a 2003 cobra intercooler core in a custom aluminum upper intake manifold / discharge manifold. This will be bolted directly to my 2.2L Kenne Bell blower (same compressor as used in the 600-700RWHP 2003 cobras you have read about). I have almost completed the manifold in wood and will be duplicating in aluminum after I complete the damper - probably early February. I am running Aeromotive billet rails and will upgrade from 36lb/hr to 42lb/hr or 50lb/hr injectors for this combo.

I have also decided upon a Lightning intercooler pump (higher flow rate than cobra) and a Fluidyne 2003 Cobra heat exchanger, as it is narrower than the lightning unit. I bought a lightning unit, but it would not fit between the frame rails on the ranger, the Cobra will.

My end result of this intake, the 1 3/4 headers, and 349ci stroker should produce 550-600rwhp at 16-17psi boost. Something tells me my Ranger is no longer going to be a daily driver :D I am shooting to have this done by May, as a bunch of the Ranger V8 guys are planning to meet at a drag strip for a grudge match somewhere in Ohio, VA, KY area in May.
 






Big Duke, the Eaton is much less efficient than the Kenne Bell superchargers. They are a cheap starting point for a first prototype combination.

Todd, I almost pointed out the extremely unique dampner of the Explorer, but I just wanted to make a short comment about balancing.

Wow, I do like the progress you have made on the Kenne Bell combination. What is that kit made for, and why hasn't anyone else put that into an Explorer? Even without an intercooler, that would be vastly better than the Explorer Express kit.

I see that you are trying to get an intercooler in there, and 1.75" headers also. I'd scrap the stock 90 degree elbow, and the Kenne Bell inlet pipe. A fabricated replacement would flow much better. There is a lot of power gained between the original Kenne Bell inlets, and the newer versions. I'd look at those for ideas.

It would definately be great to get 1.75" headers in a supercharged Explorer or Ranger, but I believe just building 1.625" primaries with 2.5" collectors would be wonderful. They would surely be much easier to build also. I'm not trying to talk you out of the larger size. I just understand how difficult it is to fabricate some quality headers to fit in that tiny space. The Torque Monster headers are a good example of this. Their 1.5" headers fit very well I am sure, but it really sounds like they couldn't build anything larger. Anotherwords, the next logical step would be to try to fit 1.625" primaries, preferably with 2.5" collectors.

I am glad that you have the front frame section to use for fabricating, that's extremely valuable for you. I may have a problem with my O2 sensors, or my converters. I intermittently get a "check gauge" light come on whenever I am at part throttle, under load, at around 2000 RPM.

Is that a 2.2 liter Kenne Bell blower? Good luck, and keep posting updates. :thumbsup:
DonW
 






The 2.2L Kenne Bell is still in a box in my house. I am not bothering with it until I have the manifold complete. The 1.5L I have is the same case size as the 2.2L, so I am using it for fitment.

For the manifold, I will have to make a new inlet as well. I may end up making a driver's side air box, as not sure if I will have hood clearance to bring inlet over the intercooler to keep passenger's side.

The setup I have on my truck now is a modified Mustang kit. I have mustang 5.0L inlet and discharge, a holley systemax I lower (GT40 will not work with throttle cable location on dash), custom front drive extension, drive support, coil bracket, and throttle bracket. I can make another setup if anyone is interested!
 






I am interested, because that has the potential to flow as well as the "down-up-down" of the Lightning and Cobra system. They have a sharp 90 degree bend that the inlet flow has to make from below the intercooler, to above the intake ports, and down.

I ran accross a couple of your previous threads. Could you not gain some clearance in the back by shortening the snout more, since you are making a new mount(the inlet to intake)? This would allow the use of the GT40's, and the flowzilla type inlets, or custom equally large high flowing.

Did you get the tuning sorted out recently? What kind of PCM, chip, etc. did you have to use? I wish we could use the Cobra PCM, or the Aviator PCM. They would tune as readily as the Lightning, or the new Cobra(no FMU, or boost retard).

Are the accessory brackets from any kit, or did they have to be made from scratch?

How close are you with the headers? Could 1.625" primaries be made more easily, with a 2.5 collector still? I may have converter issues soon. I will change my four O2 sensors first. Good work, I understand how much time that is taking.
Don W
 






Todd, do you know if there is a KB blower with an outlet that is longitudinal, like the Cobra units? That type of outlet would flow better to an inlet box to the intercooler.
Could the Cobra version be run upside down, and the rear inlet run backwords? If the rear bolt pattern is symetrical, then maybe it would be better to start with.

Now I wish I had looked harder at that Navigator KB kit that sold for $1025 a few months ago.
Don
 






Not sure what you mean with repsect to the outlet. The compressor I am using is the common Autorotor 2.2L unit used in all Kenne Bell's 5.0L, 03-04 Cobra, and dodge big kits. It is the same case as the 1.5L unit with different screws with a sharper lead angle. The inlet is on the rear of the case and the outlet at the front . The outlet can be either top or bottom, but that moves the drive from side to side. For instance, the current setup has the outlet on top with the drive on the right. I I flip it, it puts the outlet on bottom and drive on left. My setup will pull compressor ~3-4" forward from current and provide for more inlet space. A custom inlet is planned. The outlet will be on top and blow straight up into a plenum that spans over to the intercooler. Then, straight down the intercooler and directly into the Victor 5.0L airgap lower. I went with the Victor lower, as better cooling and flow than a GT40 - oh, and the 8 rectangular ports all in line are easier to mill in the Aluminum (lazy). I also figured why not use the best lower I could get if going this custom.

The headers have been idle since Thursday, for holiday. Just got back in town and will start on again tomorrow. I will modify the driver's side slightly to provide more clearance to steering and work on the pass side. I really hope to trial fit on the truck Wednesday, but will more than likely be Thursday. Regardless, I need to get trial fit and my truck back together for work on Monday. I also have trans temp gage, all shocks, and a new CAT pipe to install, so time is tight.

Oh, as for the tune, I have a PCM flash from Jerry W (SCT) right now, but will be getting the SCT Pro-Racer package once the headers go on. There is no need for any other processor. The Explorer EEC-V is fine once the Closed Loop @ WOT is turned off and you have SCT dyno tune you or you get the SCT pro racer package.
 






Just a quick question: Why won't a stroker motor pass smog emmisions? I know that Ca. may be tougher but I had a 331 with a 12lb paxton supercharger and all the cats and smog pump and it passed almost as well as if it was stock (When I say almost, I mean right on except a slight diff in one thing). Just asking.
 






Larger engines make more of everything. The standards will be based on the stock engine.LOL
DW
 






Todd , I am glad to hear that the KB blowers can be run upside down. My comment about the inlet was because, the outlet on the Cobra and Lightning is a match to the intercooler. The outlet on the Mustang version is not longitudinal, but narrower front to back. Is the 2200 version different?

Good thinking to use the Victor 5.0, that would be my choice also. I would guess that you want to bolt the intake plenum to the Victor 5.0, but how many threads are there? Can you mill some of the intake down to gain clearance. The inlet plenum needs to be smoothly shaped, rounded, larger than the Mustang plenums.

It's great that you have the frame section to fit everything. Are you ging to use a stock cat pipe, or make one from two cats, and 2.5" tubing? Magnaflow has many many higher flowing cats. I like their large longer cats with smooth inlets and outlets.
Don
 






What is a closed loop WOT? I thought that normally at WOT, the PCM used different parameters anyway. Was your first attempt at raising the boost improved by what you have learned since then? Are you having to use an FMU, or a boost retard? LOL
Don
 






Using 2.5" tubing and two Catco 9606 14" cats.

The closed loop at WOT is unique to the explorer. Usually the PCM will kick out of closed loop at WOT and run from a table. This is what is corrected / changed with an SCT chip/flash. I am using 36lb/hr injectors right now with an 80mm ProM, setup with my re-flash. No FMU or boost retard needed.
 






Hey, anyone following this thread, I need a 5.0L V8 transmission cooler line to proceed with the passenger's side header. I looked under my truck and saw the line goes exactly where I was planning to run the primaries (a little mad at that point).

Does anyone have a "spare" I could buy or use?
 



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Todd, why not make your own? You sound competent as a fabricator, all you will need is a double flaring tool, and lines that you can buy at any good parts store.

I made new 3/8" lines for my 1986 Crown Vic when I rebuilt my 351W and AOD. I added a larger police oil cooler as a transmission cooler. I used basically four lines to get from the AOD to the radiator, and the cooler. I made a small line to go between the cooler to the radiator. I had no rubber hoses. I bent the lines so that I didn't have to cut and flare any ends. I wasn't confident in flaring the ends myself, then.
I had a few leaks. I used proper union fittings, but most of the joints leaked, regardless of tightness. The magic was to add just the right size of o-ring into the fittings, then they didn't need to be very tight, and they never leaked.

Two years ago I added ABS to one of my 95 Crown Vics, the one that I wanted to keep. I had to use brake lines from two cars, and double flare the two joints in the middle of the two rear lines. They never leaked, and the ABS works great.

Todd you can do it. Use 3/8" line, Ford upgraded from 5/16" many years ago for better fluid flow.
Don
 






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