Driving with a coolant leak from the timing cover

[98FordLove]

This is the gap he is likely reffering to. It looks like this gap is normal when the harmonic balancer is on tight. For those with the same truck as me, do you have a gap where circled in this pic like this one does?

This is not my truck, I pulled this screenshot from a Youtube video of a guy pulling the balancer off and this is the state it was in fully on tight.

 

[EB4X]

As stated more than once before you are NOT going to have coolant gushing out your CRANK seal / harmonic balancer...(you don't have coolant going in your oil).... you said the sketchy "mechanic" stated it was leaking EXTERNALLY..... although for good reasons I don't trust half of what he told you ....you should have had him elaborate on what his "semi fix" was to mitigate the "gushing coolant" and what his vague reference to "it's leaking near the harmonic balancer" ....what exactly was he implying?...although at this point it's probably best to just ignore most of what he said... You need to go to yet another mechanic and have them put this on a lift with it running and thoroughly inspect for where it's TRULY still leaking from. HOW MUCH COOLANT DO YOU SEE on the ground after running it for a bit? Since it was leaking for a while out the timing cover...I assume maybe you were adding tap water to keep it going until you could get around to this gasket replacement.....the minerals / deposits in tap water can push an already spent water pump over the edge --thus maybe coolant is now leaking out the weep hole in your waterpump....which is right above your harmonic balancer...... put on lift with bright flashlight to get to the bottom of this.

 

[98FordLove]

As stated more than once before you are NOT going to have coolant gushing out your CRANK seal / harmonic balancer...(you don't have coolant going in your oil).... you said the sketchy "mechanic" stated it was leaking EXTERNALLY..... although for good reasons I don't trust half of what he told you ....you should have had him elaborate on what his "semi fix" was to mitigate the "gushing coolant" and what his vague reference to "it's leaking near the harmonic balancer" ....what exactly was he implying?...although at this point it's probably best to just ignore most of what he said... You need to go to yet another mechanic and have them put this on a lift with it running and thoroughly inspect for where it's TRULY still leaking from. HOW MUCH COOLANT DO YOU SEE on the ground after running it for a bit? Since it was leaking for a while out the timing cover...I assume maybe you were adding tap water to keep it going until you could get around to this gasket replacement.....the minerals / deposits in tap water can push an already spent water pump over the edge --thus maybe coolant is now leaking out the weep hole in your waterpump....which is right above your harmonic balancer...... put on lift with bright flashlight to get to the bottom of this.

Okay. When I checked earlier, it was green stuff so I know 100% it's coolant. So that means it's NOT coming out from the crank seal/harmonic balancer. My guess is that it has to be the timing cover then because where else would it be from in that specific area. I don't trust anything the first mechanic says anymore and all these mistakes he made that my second mechanic had to fix.

At the time, I did push and really try to have the first mech elaborate on what he meant by coolant coming from the balancer. He pretty said the same thing over and over. "I'm 90% certain your timing cover is warped or has stress cracks from when you overheating the motor" and "replacing the timing cover, I can't gaurantee will fix it but I am 90% sure". And then of course also "We've fixed so much on this truck and I brought all the metal back down to bare metal and when you do that on a truck that has had sludge and all the crud on it for years, it holds up leaks and now that we no longer have any crud to hold up leaks, coolant because it's 50% water can now go through any seem or crank, even the smallest one."

Yes my mechanic will be putting this on a lift and checking it out on Tuesday. I may even try my other mechanic and see if hes free and can get me in sooner. But I may just hold off and wait to see the mechanic on Tuesday because he's flat out better.

From when I ran it, while running 2-3 drops of coolant was hitting the ground every 1-2 seconds. I'm going to check the rad tomorow to see how much coolant I lost and hopefully I can throw my just arrived bottle of K seal in it. Though I am highly doubtful that K seal will work in this case but fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

No I never added tap water ever, I know that's a no no. But when I took the truck to my very first mech (the one who was unable to diagnose where the leak was coming from), when he brought it in though, his guy popped the hood and did clean the engine bay, so maybe that was it.
I do have a brand new water pump on right now. I would be shocked if it was already leaking but it's possible.

 

[EB4X]

Okay...so new pump so no chance of that leaking...
This >> "and I brought all the metal back down to bare metal" - this should always be done but being the timing cover is aluminum I'm wondering if he over scrapped it / even sanded it a bit and over did it in a spot thus it's now no longer mating properly....something that would be relatively easy to do with aluminum if someone's in a hurry / negligent....and then deflecting his error with the off the wall comments about "older vehicles" etc.....
I've block sanded old gasket residue / material off metal items prepping for install and carried that over to an aluminum thermo housing once which I almost messed up that way. My guess is his "plan B" ..."I got an idea that might work" was just adding some extra gasket adhesive / RTV to hopefully remedy the error. I've never heard of a timing cover warping or cracking. If new mechanic confirms it's leaking from timing cover coolant path hole(s) that pretty much guarantees that's what happened and thus now possibly needing a new cover. I'm spent on this situation.

 

[98FordLove]

Okay...so new pump so no chance of that leaking...
This >> "and I brought all the metal back down to bare metal" - this should always be done but being the timing cover is aluminum I'm wondering if he over scrapped it / even sanded it a bit and over did it in a spot thus it's now no longer mating properly....something that would be relatively easy to do with aluminum if someone's in a hurry / negligent....and then deflecting his error with the off the wall comments about "older vehicles" etc.....
I've block sanded old gasket residue / material off metal items prepping for install and carried that over to an aluminum thermo housing once which I almost messed up that way. My guess is his "plan B" ..."I got an idea that might work" was just adding some extra gasket adhesive / RTV to hopefully remedy the error. I've never heard of a timing cover warping or cracking. If new mechanic confirms it's leaking from timing cover coolant path hole(s) that pretty much guarantees that's what happened and thus now possibly needing a new cover. I'm spent on this situation.

I hope he didn't take too much off but you are right, I think this is a very likely cause. I've never heard of a timing cover warp or cracking either, I mean it's solid steel and it's thick and heavy. But he kept saying how it's aluminum and aluminum is soft and over time can warp and crack just from wear and tear which I find hard to believe. I don't think he sanded any of the metal but I know he scrapped the gunk off of it with a screwdriver he said and hit it with degreaser 3-4 times. He said he spent a couple of hours doing this because there was so much gunk.

You think adding more adhesive/RTV would work? I thought that stuff has to go on with the parts off the truck, not on? The new mechanic should be able to confirm where the leak is coming from but no way to tell if it's from the cover not matting properly without taking it off I am assuming.

Now thinking about it and after seeing it last night, I am 100% certain this is it. Hence his comment "I am 90% certain a new timing cover will fix this"...."but I'm not tearing it down for a third time because it's just not worth it". Uhh ya you most definitely should be tearing it down for a third time because you messed up. But I wouldn't want him doing it because of his incompetence and how he messed up on my other jobs.

If that's the case then I question if K seal will work but K seal does say that it will seal holes up to 1/32". I am hoping to drop the bottle in the next day or two after I lose enough coolant. Will check the rad shortly and report back.

 

[96eb96]

Okay. When I checked earlier, it was green stuff so I know 100% it's coolant. So that means it's NOT coming out from the crank seal/harmonic balancer. My guess is that it has to be the timing cover then because where else would it be from in that specific area. I don't trust anything the first mechanic says anymore and all these mistakes he made that my second mechanic had to fix.

At the time, I did push and really try to have the first mech elaborate on what he meant by coolant coming from the balancer. He pretty said the same thing over and over. "I'm 90% certain your timing cover is warped or has stress cracks from when you overheating the motor" and "replacing the timing cover, I can't gaurantee will fix it but I am 90% sure". And then of course also "We've fixed so much on this truck and I brought all the metal back down to bare metal and when you do that on a truck that has had sludge and all the crud on it for years, it holds up leaks and now that we no longer have any crud to hold up leaks, coolant because it's 50% water can now go through any seem or crank, even the smallest one."

Yes my mechanic will be putting this on a lift and checking it out on Tuesday. I may even try my other mechanic and see if hes free and can get me in sooner. But I may just hold off and wait to see the mechanic on Tuesday because he's flat out better.

From when I ran it, while running 2-3 drops of coolant was hitting the ground every 1-2 seconds. I'm going to check the rad tomorow to see how much coolant I lost and hopefully I can throw my just arrived bottle of K seal in it. Though I am highly doubtful that K seal will work in this case but fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

No I never added tap water ever, I know that's a no no. But when I took the truck to my very first mech (the one who was unable to diagnose where the leak was coming from), when he brought it in though, his guy popped the hood and did clean the engine bay, so maybe that was it.
I do have a brand new water pump on right now. I would be shocked if it was already leaking but it's possible.

What brand of waterpump? Cheap parts (waterpump) could be defective, but unlikely so fast.

There may be leak points that can work their way down and look like a crank seal leak. Sometimes making surfaces "too pretty" damages them and can cause a leak. Sometimes you then have to add some RTV, sometimes you ruin the cover and it has to be replaced.

Two that come to mind:
Timing cover seal
Thermostat housing
Lower intake manifold gasket not installed correctly

A real mechanic has something called a pressure tester. You can also rent one from parts stores. You pump it up and you can see where coolant comes out. This shouldn't be stumping pros. We are talking here 1930s engine technology here, sealing surfaces and stuff.

I'll also suggest to change the uppermost idler pulley. Years back it was a common failure point. Unless you are sure it was changed, it is worth a few bucks. I had mine go in a bad place.
If "crud" was holding it together, the K-seal will take care of it.

 

[96eb96]

I hope he didn't take too much off but you are right, I think this is a very likely cause. I've never heard of a timing cover warp or cracking either, I mean it's solid steel and it's thick and heavy. But he kept saying how it's aluminum and aluminum is soft and over time can warp and crack just from wear and tear which I find hard to believe. I don't think he sanded any of the metal but I know he scrapped the gunk off of it with a screwdriver he said and hit it with degreaser 3-4 times. He said he spent a couple of hours doing this because there was so much gunk.

You think adding more adhesive/RTV would work? I thought that stuff has to go on with the parts off the truck, not on? The new mechanic should be able to confirm where the leak is coming from but no way to tell if it's from the cover not matting properly without taking it off I am assuming.

Now thinking about it and after seeing it last night, I am 100% certain this is it. Hence his comment "I am 90% certain a new timing cover will fix this"...."but I'm not tearing it down for a third time because it's just not worth it". Uhh ya you most definitely should be tearing it down for a third time because you messed up. But I wouldn't want him doing it because of his incompetence and how he messed up on my other jobs.

If that's the case then I question if K seal will work but K seal does say that it will seal holes up to 1/32". I am hoping to drop the bottle in the next day or two after I lose enough coolant. Will check the rad shortly and report back.

I found some notes in the factory manual, it talks about inspecting the lower intake manifold for pitting where the coolant seal is. They also specify a bit of RTV in the cracks. If there is any wear or damage to the surfaces, it says to replace. Now, screw that, when I did mine I just used a bit of RTV, it looked pretty good too. I used a factory gasket and the truck is going to be a rust heap the next time that leaks. Honestly it wasn't even leaking, I did it because when I did the valve covers, I did preventative maintenance for another $40. But leaks like that would be easily sealed with K-seal. If it is pi**isng out, then you have a problem.

 

[98FordLove]

What brand of waterpump? Cheap parts (waterpump) could be defective, but unlikely so fast.

There may be leak points that can work their way down and look like a crank seal leak. Sometimes making surfaces "too pretty" damages them and can cause a leak. Sometimes you then have to add some RTV, sometimes you ruin the cover and it has to be replaced.

Two that come to mind:
Timing cover seal
Thermostat housing
Lower intake manifold gasket not installed correctly

A real mechanic has something called a pressure tester. You can also rent one from parts stores. You pump it up and you can see where coolant comes out. This shouldn't be stumping pros. We are talking here 1930s engine technology here, sealing surfaces and stuff.

I'll also suggest to change the uppermost idler pulley. Years back it was a common failure point. Unless you are sure it was changed, it is worth a few bucks. I had mine go in a bad place.
If "crud" was holding it together, the K-seal will take care of it.

I will call the parts shop to find out the brand as I can match it up with the price I paid for it. I know that all the parts the first mechanic put in are mid grade and not the entry level parts as one of the few things we both agreed on is that it's not worth using cheap parts for 99% of stuff.

I did take a very good look from the top of the motor last night and saw no leaks, where before this repair I was easily able to spot the coolant leak coming from the timing cover gasket and the oil leak from both valve cover gaskets. It's 100% dry up there. But when you look below then you see coolant dripping down from a few spots (like the front suspension bar) but I'm also sure that because coolant is so light that when you drive, the coolant can blow and spread right?

Timing coverseal as in the gasket? I can't even see this without having to take stuff apart. I'm not even 100% sure if the first mechanic even bothered to change the original lower intake manifold gasket like he said he would, after seeing how the top manifold ones were all cracked. Do you know if lower manifold gaskets can be seen when the upper manifold gaskets come off? If so, I can call my mechanic from a couple of days ago who put in upper gaskets and see if he checked them.

Thermostat housing would be a lot cheaper and less work to replace for sure, if this was it, then consider myself lucky.

My mechanic who did the fixes has a pressure tester in his shop.

Where is this uppermost idler pulley? Darn wish I knew this before the repair. Hope it's not much labour involved.

Fingers crossed on K-seal.

 

[98FordLove]

I found some notes in the factory manual, it talks about inspecting the lower intake manifold for pitting where the coolant seal is. They also specify a bit of RTV in the cracks. If there is any wear or damage to the surfaces, it says to replace. Now, screw that, when I did mine I just used a bit of RTV, it looked pretty good too. I used a factory gasket and the truck is going to be a rust heap the next time that leaks. Honestly it wasn't even leaking, I did it because when I did the valve covers, I did preventative maintenance for another $40. But leaks like that would be easily sealed with K-seal. If it is pi**isng out, then you have a problem.

I wish I didn't have to wait until Tuesday to get it up on the lift but I know this mechanic will do it right so best to just wait for him to look at it and in the mean time get the K seal in the rad. Like I said, I could take it to another one of my mechanics today if I wanted and he will look at it at no cost on his lift but again he was unable to even spot the timing cover gasket leak the first time he looked at it and all he did was pressure test it and I walked out stumped on what the cause was.

I had no idea you can use RTV sealant outside the parts. I didn't think it would stay especially if it's on plastic.

From what I see it's not pissing out. It was according to the first mechanic but when he tore it down again and managed to close the gap when getting the balancer back on, he lessened it and said it's a lot better and considered it "minor". I didn't see how bad the leak was prior to bringing the truck to him with the bad timing cover gasket so I can't compare. But right now I would say the leak is consistent. It's definitely not "very minor" where it's just dropping a drop every few minutes.

 

[98FordLove]

Found out the brand of my new waterpump - WorldParts.

Looks to be this brand.

Worldparts Auto Parts | Reliable Replacement Parts | Bumper to Bumper | Bumper to Bumper

Discover reliable and affordable Worldparts replacement auto parts at Bumper to Bumper. Trusted for quality, fit, and performance across Canada.

goworldparts.com

 

[96eb96]

I will call the parts shop to find out the brand as I can match it up with the price I paid for it. I know that all the parts the first mechanic put in are mid grade and not the entry level parts as one of the few things we both agreed on is that it's not worth using cheap parts for 99% of stuff.

I did take a very good look from the top of the motor last night and saw no leaks, where before this repair I was easily able to spot the coolant leak coming from the timing cover gasket and the oil leak from both valve cover gaskets. It's 100% dry up there. But when you look below then you see coolant dripping down from a few spots (like the front suspension bar) but I'm also sure that because coolant is so light that when you drive, the coolant can blow and spread right?

Timing coverseal as in the gasket? I can't even see this without having to take stuff apart. I'm not even 100% sure if the first mechanic even bothered to change the original lower intake manifold gasket like he said he would, after seeing how the top manifold ones were all cracked. Do you know if lower manifold gaskets can be seen when the upper manifold gaskets come off? If so, I can call my mechanic from a couple of days ago who put in upper gaskets and see if he checked them.

Thermostat housing would be a lot cheaper and less work to replace for sure, if this was it, then consider myself lucky.

My mechanic who did the fixes has a pressure tester in his shop.

Where is this uppermost idler pulley? Darn wish I knew this before the repair. Hope it's not much labour involved.

Fingers crossed on K-seal.

Idler pulley is 10 minutes of work. 5 to take the belt on and off. 5 to r/r pulley. Look on the passenger side of the engine, toward the top.
It is hard to know quality of those water pumps from brands. In a perfect world you should have used a Ford WP, I don't know what that would cost in Canada though. I paid about 50-60 for it, many years ago. Leaking in 2 days is hard to believe from any brand.

I've also seen hoses that aren't clamped well, the fluid makes its way somewhere else.

Thermostat housing actually don't need a gasket, there is an o-ring on the thermostat that seals.

RTV to my knowledge can't be used on outside parts. You must install it when you do the repair.

Sometimes the car has to be hot or cold for the pressure tester to show anything. I don't know, the truck isn't in front of me.

 

[98FordLove]

Idler pulley is 10 minutes of work. 5 to take the belt on and off. 5 to r/r pulley. Look on the passenger side of the engine, toward the top.
It is hard to know quality of those water pumps from brands. In a perfect world you should have used a Ford WP, I don't know what that would cost in Canada though. I paid about 50-60 for it, many years ago. Leaking in 2 days is hard to believe from any brand.

I've also seen hoses that aren't clamped well, the fluid makes its way somewhere else.

Thermostat housing actually don't need a gasket, there is an o-ring on the thermostat that seals.

RTV to my knowledge can't be used on outside parts. You must install it when you do the repair.

Sometimes the car has to be hot or cold for the pressure tester to show anything. I don't know, the truck isn't in front of me.

oh when you say idler pulley,do you mean the belt tensioner? If so, I replaced it too, it has a metal good one, Gates brand.

I wonder if the first mechanic didn't put the thermo housing o ring back on properly like he failed with the upper intake manifold o ring.So the thermo house gasket is reusable? I had this replaced too but who knows if the mech even did it. Could be cracked like the upper intake manifold ones were. Had no idea this could cause the leak.

Oh sorry, thought RTV was able to seal off from the outside. Darn.

 

[98FordLove]

Going to put the bottle of k-Seal in shortly. I wish you could see down the rad tube to see how much space you got, hoping to get the whole 472ml bottle in. May have to do it over a couple days if I cant get it all in at once.

 

[donalds]

No put it all in at the same time then go for a half hour ride

Shake the he'll out of that bottle first to
It MAY take a few days to seal up

 

[98FordLove]

What brand of waterpump? Cheap parts (waterpump) could be defective, but unlikely so fast.

There may be leak points that can work their way down and look like a crank seal leak. Sometimes making surfaces "too pretty" damages them and can cause a leak. Sometimes you then have to add some RTV, sometimes you ruin the cover and it has to be replaced.

Two that come to mind:
Timing cover seal
Thermostat housing
Lower intake manifold gasket not installed correctly

A real mechanic has something called a pressure tester. You can also rent one from parts stores. You pump it up and you can see where coolant comes out. This shouldn't be stumping pros. We are talking here 1930s engine technology here, sealing surfaces and stuff.

I'll also suggest to change the uppermost idler pulley. Years back it was a common failure point. Unless you are sure it was changed, it is worth a few bucks. I had mine go in a bad place.
If "crud" was holding it together, the K-seal will take care of it.

I will say that I highly doubt it's the timing cover gasket/seal mainly because he replaced it twice (as he tore down the cover twice) and both times didn't fix it. And according to him he was super careful and took his time and he knew the new gaskets went on perfect with 100% seal and he said it wasn't the gasket leaking. If any mechanic manages to mess up the same gasket after 2 installs then they are a horrible mechanic.

My guess is it's the lower intake manifold or the thermo housing o-ring not put on right.

 

[donalds]

Imagine how much time and money you would have saved to just buy all the parts and fix it yourself
You have all the info twice over now to fix it on your own
I'm gonna call this one for me
I just don't have any useful advice anymore other than fix it yourself put pressure on the system and find the leak

Can I suggest a elite membership to support the forums

 

[98FordLove]

No put it all in at the same time then go for a half hour ride

Shake the he'll out of that bottle first to
It MAY take a few days to seal up

I shaked it good and was able to dump 60% of the bottle in the rad (right up to the neck) but not all, so I put the rest in the off tank. Will it eventually get into the system from there? Because I drove it and while running, the coolant from the overflow tank didn't seem to move, stayed the same level the entire time. So that 40% of K seal doesn't sound like it's being used.

I ordered another bottle of K seal and will put 40% of a bottle in the rad when it's cold again (taking it that it will take it). Will check the level again later tonight.

I took it for two 30 min drives on the highway and I noticed that when the thermostat opens up, the heat is noticeably hotter than before. Good sign? After the first drive with it running, I took a peak under and it seemed to be leaking less. Will give it a couple of days to see how it goes and if it seals up.

 

[98FordLove]

Imagine how much time and money you would have saved to just buy all the parts and fix it yourself
You have all the info twice over now to fix it on your own
I'm gonna call this one for me
I just don't have any useful advice anymore other than fix it yourself put pressure on the system and find the leak

Can I suggest a elite membership to support the forums

If I could do the repairs myself, don't you think I would have done this? Obviously the reason why I got a mechanic to do it is because I am not mechnically inclined, nor do I have the tools. You're making it sound like anyone can just take off timing covers and replace gaskets with ease. This is why people get a mechanic to do it. Trust me, you do not want me working on any cars. I've done oil changes on previous cars and ATF changes and that's about it but it takes me about 10 times longer to do it because I run into issues and I easily make mistakes. I'm not one to be working on cars for big repairs. What's an elite membership?

 

[96eb96]

I shaked it good and was able to dump 60% of the bottle in the rad (right up to the neck) but not all, so I put the rest in the off tank. Will it eventually get into the system from there? Because I drove it and while running, the coolant from the overflow tank didn't seem to move, stayed the same level the entire time. So that 40% of K seal doesn't sound like it's being used.

I ordered another bottle of K seal and will put 40% of a bottle in the rad when it's cold again (taking it that it will take it). Will check the level again later tonight.

I took it for two 30 min drives on the highway and I noticed that when the thermostat opens up, the heat is noticeably hotter than before. Good sign? After the first drive with it running, I took a peak under and it seemed to be leaking less. Will give it a couple of days to see how it goes and if it seals up.

Yeah, give it some time to seal up. It can certainly help build pressure and get hotter. Leaks also go both ways and allow air pockets in. To fully seal my cylinder head it took about 100 miles. That is a pretty worst case scenario because the cylinder is trying to push coolant out, vs an external leak.
Every day the misfires got less and less on that cyl, until there was like 1 or 2 on a trip (normal).

 

[98FordLove]

On the K seal site it says:

• Once K-Seal has been added allow the vehicle to idle for about 20 – 30 minutes. Higher revs or driving the vehicle will increase pressures in the cooling system which can sometimes make a repair more difficult, in particular with head gasket issues (see additional instructions below).

Darn. Looks like I was suppose to idle for 20-30 mins first before doing my 30min drive.