E85 at $3.50@gallon vs 87 octane $6.00@gallon.

[Spacey]

The biggest issue with California gas prices, other than the state taxes, is that the fuel here requires special formulation to meet state emission requirements. Gasoline produced elsewhere is not sold here. Since refinery capacity for California fuel is limited, the price is higher. Finally the United Steelworkers struck a major refinery in Northern California recently that reduced capacity by an additional 10 percent. Today I spent $109 for a tank of 91 octane for my ST. Crazy. But I moved here in the 70's and I remember how bad the air quality was compared to now. Don't want to go back to that. The Governor said the state is going to rebate $400 per registered vehicle to every car owner. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[CDW6212R]

Ouch! Why are gas prices so high in Canada? Too far from refineries?

Canada has more oil reserves than the US. They are about 3rd or 4th in the world, the US reserves are about 10% of what Canada has.

 

[HarryN]

That’s crazy, I paid $3.49/gal for 87 in Omaha today. Why are fuel prices so high in California?

It is a combination of things.

In addition to the federal EPA, CA also has it's own EPA.

Each region has an AQMD (air quality management district). These people hate fuel and do everything that they can to make it more expensive.

In order to reduce emissions from evaporation, the fuel has some tight limits on the lighter fractions.

In order to burn more completely, it has added oxygenates.

It is known as a "boutique fuel blend" that various over the year to deal with temperature changes, and the commodities wall street people like to play games with availability at the cross over dates.

Former Gov Schwarzenegger cared more about fame than common sense, so he pushed through high carbon taxes, in addition to fuel taxes. The latest Gov is happy to follow suite.

We used to get a lot of very high quality crude from Alaska, but much of that is exported to Japan.

Last but not least, CA governments and agencies like to black mail / shake down companies as a condition of issuing permits. For instance in S CA, the county held up a "final permit to operate" a very good refinery upgrade (lower emissions, cleaner, more efficient) until they agree to pay into a local politician's favorite non profit.

Sprinter van's engine replacements have been held up for similar reasons in the past, with 10s of thousands of vehicles built and waiting for some paperwork, even though they were built with more efficient, cleaner burning engines.

We like to imagine that this kind of politician "shake down" doesn't happen in the USA, but it does and it adds a lot of costs.

 

[steweod]

We have oil refineries here a mile or two away and ships bringing oil in to our ports, so logically we would pay twice as much, it just makes sense. You guys pay less because of the cost reductions possible when transporting oil hundreds or thousands of miles from where it costs twice as much.

Paul

Then why is it cheaper in Tx? They have the exact same scenario you described....

In the Mo, Ks, Ne area normally gas is a little cheaper because it is a crossroads of transportation for trucks, rail, and pipelines.

 

[steweod]

The biggest issue with California gas prices, other than the state taxes, is that the fuel here requires special formulation to meet state emission requirements. Gasoline produced elsewhere is not sold here. Since refinery capacity for California fuel is limited, the price is higher. Finally the United Steelworkers struck a major refinery in Northern California recently that reduced capacity by an additional 10 percent. Today I spent $109 for a tank of 91 octane for my ST. Crazy. But I moved here in the 70's and I remember how bad the air quality was compared to now. Don't want to go back to that. The Governor said the state is going to rebate $400 per registered vehicle to every car owner. I'm not holding my breath.

Makes no sense. If you can rebate 400 bucks then just lower the gas taxes.....

 

[94Eddie]

Makes no sense. If you can rebate 400 bucks then just lower the gas taxes.....

In Virginia the Governor dropped the state fuel tax until August. Then it will be phased back in over August and September.

 

[CDW6212R]

Makes no sense. If you can rebate 400 bucks then just lower the gas taxes.....

It makes sense from a big government politician's point of view. They can promise(almost always lies BTW) giving something back, and whether they do or not, the prior tax or fees become permanent, and can continue to go up.

Almost half of gas prices are the taxes, last I read years ago it was about 47% of the pump prices. The costs were near 45%, and the rest was profit. So the oil companies have always been in the single digit profit range, while the government fees are always five times that or more.

So gas prices have always been due to government, Europe has had massive taxes for decades, ask anyone that's lived there. California has extra government taxes, unlike the rest of the country. You figure out why that is, most of us know already.

 

[steweod]

It makes sense from a big government politician's point of view. They can promise(almost always lies BTW) giving something back, and whether they do or not, the prior tax or fees become permanent, and can continue to go up.

Almost half of gas prices are the taxes, last I read years ago it was about 47% of the pump prices. The costs were near 45%, and the rest was profit. So the oil companies have always been in the single digit profit range, while the government fees are always five times that or more.

So gas prices have always been due to government, Europe has had massive taxes for decades, ask anyone that's lived there. California has extra government taxes, unlike the rest of the country. You figure out why that is, most of us know already.

like wanting a medal for putting out a fire you started....

 

[MNgopher]

It makes sense from a big government politician's point of view. They can promise(almost always lies BTW) giving something back, and whether they do or not, the prior tax or fees become permanent, and can continue to go up.

Almost half of gas prices are the taxes, last I read years ago it was about 47% of the pump prices. The costs were near 45%, and the rest was profit. So the oil companies have always been in the single digit profit range, while the government fees are always five times that or more.

So gas prices have always been due to government, Europe has had massive taxes for decades, ask anyone that's lived there. California has extra government taxes, unlike the rest of the country. You figure out why that is, most of us know already.

Not to rain on your parade as this thread gets further and further off topic...

Per the Energy Information Administration (EIA), as of February 2022, 14% of the cost of a gallon of gas is taxes (average at the national level). Even at the peak of our recent pandemic, taxes peaked at under 30% of the cost of a gallon of gas in the US. The highest it reached was just under 40% in December of 2001...

That being said, California's tax is about 15 cents more a gallon than average (40% higher than average), but in the grand scheme, the total tax is well less than the claimed 47%.

 

[AARONAS]

The biggest issue with California gas prices, other than the state taxes, is that the fuel here requires special formulation to meet state emission requirements. Gasoline produced elsewhere is not sold here. Since refinery capacity for California fuel is limited, the price is higher. Finally the United Steelworkers struck a major refinery in Northern California recently that reduced capacity by an additional 10 percent. Today I spent $109 for a tank of 91 octane for my ST. Crazy. But I moved here in the 70's and I remember how bad the air quality was compared to now. Don't want to go back to that. The Governor said the state is going to rebate $400 per registered vehicle to every car owner. I'm not holding my breath.

I have totally missed the point of your write-up. You like cleaner air. If you are nuts enough to live in 'Cafalornia', pay the taxes, and keep people like Newsome and sleepy Joe in power, you then deserve to pay $6.60+per gallon whether it's 87 octane or E85 (E85 being one of the most stupid moves this country ever made).

 

[reansor]

While filling up a 2021 PIU FFV, noticed E85 was $3.50 a gallon at Shell. With regular 87 octane and only a few thousand miles on the vehicle, we are getting 14.7MPG and the thing pings like a 1993 Crown Vic with 200k on the odo. What type of MPG could we expect if we switched to E85, and what type of engine wear would we be susceptible to using ethonol?

We drive the car "admin" style, the pinging is under moderate load light throttle, and current engine hours are 400 total, 250 idle.

Paul

Is your vehicle a flex fuel vehicle? If not, you shouldn't be running E85 at all. It'll gradually eat up your up your hoses and gas line seals.

 

[edougawa]

Is your vehicle a flex fuel vehicle? If not, you shouldn't be running E85 at all. It'll gradually eat up your up your hoses and gas line seals.

He mentioned it’s an FFV.

I realized the same thing when I drove pass an E85 gas station. I wish I chose FFV but mine isn’t (shouldn’t save that thousand bucks). Will seriously consider about it next time when I buy another explorer. I’m getting like 15 MPG on average so 14.7 doesn’t change that much.

 

[newmantjn]

Usually, the higher the ethanol content the fewer mile per gallon you will get.

Peter

It's not really that simple. The more spark you run, the better the FE, so if you have an accurate knock sensor or can run borderline spark due to a decent octane measurement, you can get better FE with higher octane. The real metric is $$/mile and usually the extra FE you get due to running higher octane is more than offset by the extra price.

EDIT: You wrote "ethanol", I read "octane". I agree with your assessment on ethanol content, although I wonder if it is not linear and perhaps the boost in MPG from going from say 0% to 10% and getting the octane boost might help? It really doesn't matter much since the vast majority of fuel has ethanol in it now.

 

[jpegjake]

The biggest issue with California gas prices, other than the state taxes, is that the fuel here requires special formulation to meet state emission requirements. Gasoline produced elsewhere is not sold here. Since refinery capacity for California fuel is limited, the price is higher. Finally the United Steelworkers struck a major refinery in Northern California recently that reduced capacity by an additional 10 percent. Today I spent $109 for a tank of 91 octane for my ST. Crazy. But I moved here in the 70's and I remember how bad the air quality was compared to now. Don't want to go back to that. The Governor said the state is going to rebate $400 per registered vehicle to every car owner. I'm not holding my breath.

My understanding about ethanol is that the ethanol itself has a very octane rating but im not sure what the octane is in e85. I think that the 85 number is the percent of gas in the mixture not the octane rating. Ofcourse certain fuel lines cannot handle the ethanol, thats the main issue.

 

[jpegjake]

While filling up a 2021 PIU FFV, noticed E85 was $3.50 a gallon at Shell. With regular 87 octane and only a few thousand miles on the vehicle, we are getting 14.7MPG and the thing pings like a 1993 Crown Vic with 200k on the odo. What type of MPG could we expect if we switched to E85, and what type of engine wear would we be susceptible to using ethonol?

We drive the car "admin" style, the pinging is under moderate load light throttle, and current engine hours are 400 total, 250 idle.

Paul

Theoretically no difference in pings going by octane rating alone, a quick google search shows E85 is at least 100 octane.

 

[peterk9]

My understanding about ethanol is that the ethanol itself has a very octane rating but im not sure what the octane is in e85. I think that the 85 number is the percent of gas in the mixture not the octane rating. Ofcourse certain fuel lines cannot handle the ethanol, thats the main issue.

Welcome to the Forum Jake.

Peter

 

[FATK]

Theoretically no difference in pings going by octane rating alone, a quick google search shows E85 is at least 100 octane.

You will use on average about 30% more E85 to get the same amount of energy driving conservatively. If your car is a Flex Fuel car then it would be fine to use E85 however there is no real gain. The big hype about E85 in the performance world is that it is a higher octane rated fuel (burns slower). This allows you to tune for more advanced timing which will produce more HP when you drive it hard. If your car is not rated for flex fuel people are correct about the hose and seal issue being a problem down the road if that is all you put in the tank. You also have to add an Alcohol sensor in the fuel supply line and connect it to the ECM. Then you would have to go into the ECM's programming and let it know that the sensor is present. There are some other programming changes that have to be made as well to get the performance and increased HP benefit of the E85 fuel. In Summary, it is just another big misleading hype by the government to make you think that you are saving the planet by burning corn Alcohol. It actually cost more to make it then what it costs to make gasoline. Smoke and mirrors once again. Sorry.

 

[94Eddie]

E85 is mostly used by gear heads to run more boost and/or compression in the quest for more horsepower due to its much higher octane rating. What makes E85 a viable alternative to gasoline these days is the price differential between the two fuels. I doubt this will continue for the long term. Production of E85 can only be done in lower quantities because it consumes too much corn to manufacture in mass quantities. If the demand for it rises the price will rise too because it can't be produced in sufficient quantity to meet a high demand scenario.

 

[MNgopher]

Tell me you aren't from corn country without telling me you aren't from corn country... Some posts on E85 certainly make that clear at times...

In my area, E85 is available at a lot of retailers. It is not just mostly gear heads looking for more boost. Because there actually is enough demand for it, most newer gas stations in our area actually offer it. And when pricing works, they sometimes sell a lot of it. Pretty typical of most anywhere in Corn Country - Iowa, Illinois, Nebraska, Minnesota, etc...

My employer requires all fleet vehicles to be FFV's and requires its use in all vehicles. So did my last three employers... If you think we are gear heads running a bunch of XL trim F150's and F250's and Silverados... with the base V6's and V8's - good luck with that.

It is the same ethanol that is blended into E85 as any other Ethanol blend. There is plenty of capacity to make ethanol in the US. As it stands, the US has become a large exporter of ethanol to other countries as a result of there being higher capacity to manufacture it than there is consumption in the US.

The big bottleneck to using more E85 is actually the number of retail locations it is available and the supporting infrastructure, and the fact that only about 7-8% of vehicles on the road are FFV capable. A chicken and egg type of problem...

Ethanol pricing ebbs and flows with farm commodities - meaning there are times it makes dollar sense, and times it won't versus gasoline.

My employer runs a huge fleet of FFV vehicles. Our biggest issue can be cold weather performance - namely starting in the dead of winter. Otherwise, it works fine and overall nets us about 20%-25% lower fuel mileage than running E10.

 

[94Eddie]

How much E85 is produced every year compared to a 10% ethanol gas blend? How much corn can feasibly be diverted to E85 production before global food supplies are severely effected? If corn is in high demand to produce vast quantities of E85 then the price of corn will skyrocket (along with many, many food items) and the main reason for using E85 (i.e. cost savings) will evaporate. My guess is currently E85 might make sense to use in fleet vehicles to reduce maintenance costs due to it being a cleaner burning fuel. This is the one reason many fleets use propane gas for fuel. The cost of lower mpg is offset by reduced maintenance costs. Also, many fleet vehicles don't use gasoline at all and run diesel.

I was born and raised in the corn belt but left there for the east coast after graduating from college. I have been around farming and know many farmers still. In my area E85 is available at many gas stations. If one wants to run it they have access to it. The same goes for unblended gasoline. Not many chose to use E85 for reasons of poor mileage or their vehicle doesn't support its use. It is more viable today due to the price differential being greater than is has in the past. Unblended gasoline is just too expensive to use in this area. Also, where you live there are big incentives to promote the use of E85 because it is a huge part of the regional economy there. Around here E85 is used mostly by people with forced induction vehicles who like the performance boost at the expense of mpg. These days this could be a small turbocharged 3/4/6 cylinder engine or supercharged coyote engine etc. Regardless, around here, the main reason it is being used is for a performance increase first and foremost. I don't see it being used in fleets much around here. Not that it isn't but the ones I know about it isn't being used.