E85 at $3.50@gallon vs 87 octane $6.00@gallon.

[MNgopher]

Amazing where this thread has wandered...

The OP was looking for info on whether E85 would help with pinging, how it would affect fuel mileage, and maintenance.

Answers: It is higher octane, but that may not eliminate pinging. Sure sounds like something else is going on there... Fuel mileage will be 20-25% lower than an E10 fuel (related to the 30% lower energy content). Maintenance wise, there are zero issues with running it per fleet use that I've seen.

We've instead covered ground about fuel taxes and what would happen if, checks notes, the impact on pricing if everyone switched to E85. Why I bother going down the rabbit holes, I'll never know.

For what its worth, anything that is manufactured in quantities of 1.0 Million Barrels per day in recent weeks (being ethanol) is not limited in manufacturing capacity. In addition, the US is a large exporter of ethanol because it has excess ethanal production capacity, plus it has more that is currently not being used as the demand is not there in the US. The constraint today is the retail availability of the product, particularly outside of the corn belt. The arguement that prices will go up if everyone starts using it are correct, until the market rebalances itself.

Its always been the same story. There are times that E0, or E10, or E15, or E85 make more sense due to supply and demand. I burn a boatload of E15 in my personal vehicles because I can find it for around 45 cents a gallon less than E10...

Current times are no different. There are times and places E85 will make sense. And times it won't. And that's ok...

 

[94Eddie]

You went right along on the off topic side trip. We all do it.

What is limited with ethanol production is how much of corn production can be diverted to its use before affecting food supply and costs. Not just here but globally. Our use of corn for ethanol production has had very negative effects of the cost of food globally. Personally, I would rather use the corn to feed starving people than put it in my gas tank. The reason we are even using ethanol in gasoline is from farm based lobbying. We don't need E10 from a need aspect. We have access to plenty of oil. The video below shows that the use of corn for fuel has been a bad idea.

 

[peterk9]

I like my corn in a jar like Orville Redenbacher.

Peter

 

[CDW6212R]

You went right along on the off topic side trip. We all do it.

What is limited with ethanol production is how much of corn production can be diverted to its use before affecting food supply and costs. Not just here but globally. Our use of corn for ethanol production has had very negative effects of the cost of food globally. Personally, I would rather use the corn to feed starving people than put it in my gas tank. The reason we are even using ethanol in gasoline is from farm based lobbying. We don't need E10 from a need aspect. We have access to plenty of oil. The video below shows that the use of corn for fuel has been a bad idea.

Ditto, lots of food items jumped in price many years ago when the 10% mandated alcohol began country wide. The costs of food items with corn in them went up back then. I'm sure there was an effect when E85 became common and OEM's made the FFV's in large numbers. It is a bad path they began long ago now, but I doubt the government will go back from that decision. Just like EV's being pushed on us, just wait for the growing shortages of electricity, and the much higher costs.

 

[encoly]

The biggest issue with California gas prices, other than the state taxes, is that the fuel here requires special formulation to meet state emission requirements. Gasoline produced elsewhere is not sold here. Since refinery capacity for California fuel is limited, the price is higher. Finally the United Steelworkers struck a major refinery in Northern California recently that reduced capacity by an additional 10 percent. Today I spent $109 for a tank of 91 octane for my ST. Crazy. But I moved here in the 70's and I remember how bad the air quality was compared to now. Don't want to go back to that. The Governor said the state is going to rebate $400 per registered vehicle to every car owner. I'm not holding my breath.

I put one tank through it and dropped my 04 gen two mileage to 11 a gal. when going on a trip, mostly freeway run regular gas get 20+ per gal. Pricing for ethanol now is 2.16 a gal, the price hasn't moved in two months. Gasoline is curently 3.23 a gal on the futures market. Add the 15 percent gasoline, and E85 should be 2.65 a gal. It takes more nat gas to distill the corn, than the energy coefficient of the ethanol.

 

[94Eddie]

I like my corn in a jar like Orville Redenbacher.

Here's an off the wall fact. My father went to the same high school as Orville Redenbacher.

 

[CDW6212R]

Here's an off the wall fact. My father went to the same high school as Orville Redenbacher.

I went to the same high school as Luke Skywalker, Annandale High School.

 

[BUXTER]

Fact is whether its 10% Ethanol or 15% Ethanol u get 10 or 15% LESS Gas mileage with Ethanol so in a typical price differential there is NO $$ Savings using any % of Ethanol when u do the simple math.

 

[jpegjake]

Amazing where this thread has wandered...

The OP was looking for info on whether E85 would help with pinging, how it would affect fuel mileage, and maintenance.

Answers: It is higher octane, but that may not eliminate pinging. Sure sounds like something else is going on there... Fuel mileage will be 20-25% lower than an E10 fuel (related to the 30% lower energy content). Maintenance wise, there are zero issues with running it per fleet use that I've seen.

We've instead covered ground about fuel taxes and what would happen if, checks notes, the impact on pricing if everyone switched to E85. Why I bother going down the rabbit holes, I'll never know.

For what its worth, anything that is manufactured in quantities of 1.0 Million Barrels per day in recent weeks (being ethanol) is not limited in manufacturing capacity. In addition, the US is a large exporter of ethanol because it has excess ethanal production capacity, plus it has more that is currently not being used as the demand is not there in the US. The constraint today is the retail availability of the product, particularly outside of the corn belt. The arguement that prices will go up if everyone starts using it are correct, until the market rebalances itself.

Its always been the same story. There are times that E0, or E10, or E15, or E85 make more sense due to supply and demand. I burn a boatload of E15 in my personal vehicles because I can find it for around 45 cents a gallon less than E10...

Current times are no different. There are times and places E85 will make sense. And times it won't. And that's ok...

I thought this was a scolding but it turned out to be pretty interesting

 

[MNgopher]

No scolding... Just the facts.

Past employment had me dealing with the consequences of wall to wall row crop farming on our waterways. Lets just say it isn't pretty. That being said, whether Ethanol policy is good or bad I'll leave for another debate...

For me now, and as it has been for quite some time, the impact on my wallet is what I'm watching. And for now, for me, E15 is the best bang for the buck in my area. Other areas are likely different.

 

[12secford]

It is a combination of things.

In addition to the federal EPA, CA also has it's own EPA.

Each region has an AQMD (air quality management district). These people hate fuel and do everything that they can to make it more expensive.

In order to reduce emissions from evaporation, the fuel has some tight limits on the lighter fractions.

In order to burn more completely, it has added oxygenates.

It is known as a "boutique fuel blend" that various over the year to deal with temperature changes, and the commodities wall street people like to play games with availability at the cross over dates.

Former Gov Schwarzenegger cared more about fame than common sense, so he pushed through high carbon taxes, in addition to fuel taxes. The latest Gov is happy to follow suite.

We used to get a lot of very high quality crude from Alaska, but much of that is exported to Japan.

Last but not least, CA governments and agencies like to black mail / shake down companies as a condition of issuing permits. For instance in S CA, the county held up a "final permit to operate" a very good refinery upgrade (lower emissions, cleaner, more efficient) until they agree to pay into a local politician's favorite non profit.

Sprinter van's engine replacements have been held up for similar reasons in the past, with 10s of thousands of vehicles built and waiting for some paperwork, even though they were built with more efficient, cleaner burning engines.

We like to imagine that this kind of politician "shake down" doesn't happen in the USA, but it does and it adds a lot of costs.

Don't blame me. I voted to recall Governor Gavin Newsom.

 

[12secford]

It is a combination of things.

In addition to the federal EPA, CA also has it's own EPA.

Each region has an AQMD (air quality management district). These people hate fuel and do everything that they can to make it more expensive.

In order to reduce emissions from evaporation, the fuel has some tight limits on the lighter fractions.

In order to burn more completely, it has added oxygenates.

It is known as a "boutique fuel blend" that various over the year to deal with temperature changes, and the commodities wall street people like to play games with availability at the cross over dates.

Former Gov Schwarzenegger cared more about fame than common sense, so he pushed through high carbon taxes, in addition to fuel taxes. The latest Gov is happy to follow suite.

We used to get a lot of very high quality crude from Alaska, but much of that is exported to Japan.

Last but not least, CA governments and agencies like to black mail / shake down companies as a condition of issuing permits. For instance in S CA, the county held up a "final permit to operate" a very good refinery upgrade (lower emissions, cleaner, more efficient) until they agree to pay into a local politician's favorite non profit.

Sprinter van's engine replacements have been held up for similar reasons in the past, with 10s of thousands of vehicles built and waiting for some paperwork, even though they were built with more efficient, cleaner burning engines.

We like to imagine that this kind of politician "shake down" doesn't happen in the USA, but it does and it adds a lot of costs.

Don't blame me. I voted to recall Governor Gavin Newsom.

 

[CDW6212R]

Don't blame me. I voted to recall Governor Gavin Newsom.

Yes, thank you, but it didn't help, they changed your vote before it was counted.

 

[DoraAExplorer]

Yes, thank you, but it didn't help, they changed your vote before it was counted.

First off you should never run E85 flex fuel in anything other than vehicles allowed to run on it, when I saw the current POTUS announce it as an alternative, I was like yeah this is going to cause a lot of issues. CA is not a good examples as gas prices there are crazy high due to all the social programs and craziness that is the state. Open air drug homeless camps come to mind.

Ethanol is not a friend of turbo vehicles period. 87-90 RON is okay as long as it contains no ethanol and this should more than likely eliminate pinging. The turbo motors where tuned to have best performance on premium no ethanol fuels.

 

[fast_dave]

They're pushing ethanol because they could care less if your SUV runs like sheet on it.
Other than a seat on the bus, ultimately they want to push you into an electric car.
Just listen to what they say-

 

[94Eddie]

They're pushing ethanol because they could care less if your SUV runs like sheet on it.
Other than a seat on the bus, ultimately they want to push you into an electric car.
Just listen to what they say-

The ultimate goal is to push you onto a bus if your social credit score is high enough to have the privilege of buying a bus ticket. The people pushing electric vehicles knows they aren't viable in mass quantities. If we have learned anything over the past two years it is that our government, and most others, want absolute control over their populations.

 

[joney]

No scolding... Just the facts.

Past employment had me dealing with the consequences of wall to wall row crop farming on our waterways. Lets just say it isn't pretty. That being said, whether Ethanol policy is good or bad I'll leave for another debate...

For me now, and as it has been for quite some time, the impact on my wallet is what I'm watching. And for now, for me, E15 is the best bang for the buck in my area. Other areas are likely different.

Sensible people said NEVER..."Hey, let's use a lot of power, water, and labor to grow food and then break it down into fuel again and put it in cars and trucks to burn inefficiently!" Would make more sense to adapt cars to burning wood, LOL.

 

[Spacey]

Here's an informative article about use of ethanol in motor fuel

The Shocking Truth About America's Ethanol Law: It Doesn't Matter (For Now)

 

[fast_dave]

Sensible people said NEVER..."Hey, let's use a lot of power, water, and labor to grow food and then break it down into fuel again and put it in cars and trucks to burn inefficiently!" Would make more sense to adapt cars to burning wood, LOL.

You left out after using energy to assist in fast fermentation of the corn slurry, then use energy to filter it & pump to storage tanks, and energy to pump it from storage tanks into tank trucks (or trains), and then energy to distribute it to refineries to add to mix w/ fuel...