EFI 351 Cleveland into Gen 1?

[CDW6212R]

I was hoping that you would say they were there in something. I know the Explorers exported are basically all V6's, but the 4R is used in lots of other Fords. Even if you could get a modular version(bell housing), that would help. The guts are identical, and you could buy a case easily to ship in.

I gave about $350-$400 for each of two used 4R's. A 98 and 99 version, one with 72k and the last with 29k on them. I'm not in a position to build one to sell, but I'm about to do mine shortly. The parts to upgrade them are not that high, say $300 at most, plus the torque converter, rebuild kit, and the controller. It isn't cheap, but the hard part is still the combination and getting it built.

There are some good builders that you can trust, but only one I'm sure of. He owns and operates Dirty Dog, Alan is his name I believe. He builds excellent converters, but I discovered him after buying 99% of my stuff, so I don't have his converter right now. I would not hesitate to buy anything from him, but I also don't know his prices besides the converters.

Note for serious power you should not deal with the TransGo VB shift kit, the $100 kits. Those are not the best for big power use. The "J" mod seems to be the way to go for big power 4R's, and only use a car valve body for those. The trucks VB usually causes issues with any "J" mod alterations, I have a car VB to modify in mine.

 

[FIXR7]

Good stuff Don,

By the time we got mod powered explorers they were already 5R55? equipped unfortunately.
I remember Baumann had a bunch of NOS 4R's for sale a coupla years ago. I did learn about the '98-up ones being better so had contemplated getting one and doing a case swap as you said.
I was going to build a 393 with AFR heads but I've decided it's simply not required and i'll better of using the money for my 390 Cougar engine build.
So it'll be a much milder version with lotsa bottom end torque. So I don't need a super tough one.
What's the J mod you refer to?
Is it easy to get the 4WD extension and shaft separately and stick it in a car box or is that just a waste of time?
I was going to use an original EEC and Moates 1/4 horse to control both engine and auto rather that the new baumann optishift. Although I could use one of those and an earlier A9* type EEC for the engine.

Pete.

 

[CDW6212R]

I think only the 96+ Ford OBDII PCM's can control the 4R's(plus the Baumann), but I'm not positive. I'd ask the Mustang guys who know the 94/95 PCM's better, but the OBDII is a better system than EECIV.

The 4WD change is just a swap of the output shaft and tail housing, but you know that is the first part in the case. The whole trans has to come apart to swap the shaft. It's held in with one snap ring, easy to do.

The "J" mod is a rather simple VB modification that an old Ford expert came up with a long time ago. It amounts to several holes being drilled out in the VB plate, and a couple of spring changes. It isn't mentioned here because this is all trucks, and that's not good for the truck VB's. I bought this spare VB for about $50 I think, I just hope the mileage is low.

Pete, so you don't have any Crown Vics there? What big Ford cars do you have, and don't they have 4.6's in them? The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis are still made here and still have the 4R in them. That's the police standard in most cities. I think you could import a light part, or the handful of internal parts, but the whole thing would be too heavy I'd guess.

Build a smallblock if you can, the lighter reciprocating assembly will be quicker than a bigblock. Check out the SBFtech forum for lots of big Ford power information. There are a bunch of members there from Australia, New Zealand etc. Regards,

 

[snoranger]

I think only the 96+ Ford OBDII PCM's can control the 4R's(plus the Baumann), but I'm not positive. I'd ask the Mustang guys who know the 94/95 PCM's better, but the OBDII is a better system than EECIV.

IIRC the 4r came out in 93 or 94 in the Lincoln Mark 8 and the T-birds got them in 94 when they went away from the 5.0 and switched to the 4.6l.

 

[FIXR7]

Yeah the '94-95 Mustang EECIV controlled the AODE. I have all the gear and binaries for them but I also have the later EECV strategy stuff too.
No Crown Vics here. The biggest car we have is the Falcon(we had a Fairlane/LTD but they canned it) which is 5.4 3V and 4V only(although the new models are 5.0 coyote powered only) which are speed density and PCM-122 controlled and drive by wire so it's too much work to retrofit to an old 351. The 4spd auto that was used('06-up got the ZFHP26 6speed) is a BTR(now Dana) LE series trans developed here and not strong enough. Besides it's a seven solenoid trans which means no aftermarket controllers support it. It was originally used behind the 5.0 from '91 but not EEC controlled until 2000 when the EEC had enough drivers to control both engine and trans with direct ignition(wasted spark) aswell.
I've been on that sbftech forum and have to say, they have an attitude problem.
The Cougar is staying FE powered as it is an S-code car...Ideally it'll be a 482 pond ally blocked job.

 

[CDW6212R]

Why not restore the FE engine to a condition that's worth the most, whether it be stock or the accepted alternatives? Then store that, or do that over time, but build a nicer Windsor stroker that has more parts and trans choices to drive. That sounds like a rare musclecar you don't want to hurt, or put mileage on the original engine. The market here has embraced all of the aftermarket mods and modern upgrades etc, so restoration isn't as big as it used to be.

The 4R is the best strong automatic for big power, aside from the bigger E4OD etc which came in super duty trucks. But those sound very rare to find outside of the US, that's too bad. It's worth getting one, but if the shipping is what I'd think it is, and getting rebuild parts on short notice is tough, that may not be the best thing there.

 

[FIXR7]

I will probably put the 390 aside but I'll still build another FE for it. I've built plenty of windsors and clevelands so I don't want to do more of the same. Besides the FE aftermarket is huge and there's no limitation on trans choices...I'll be using a T56. I've also got an old Algon mech fuel injection intake that i will convert for EFI use.

E4OD's are common here but obviously physically too damn big as you know. It's about the only 4 spd that is available in Oz F-series. I've found a place in Victoria that has 4R's called SupaF-series spares. Just waiting for him to get back to me on what he actually has in stock.
Are all 4R's wide ratio Don?

 

[CDW6212R]

The ratio is the biggest difference in the AODE versus 4R70W. The AODE is almost identical(for a given year) except for the planetary gears. That's what I was referring to about using an EECIV PCM to run the 4R, the gearing I think is a small issue there. I know you don't want the auto PCM from 94/95 because there is an affect on the engine tune at the shift rpm's. I suppose that has long since been worked out, I'm just recalling old issues from 1997 when I had my first Mark VII and getting into fuel injection more.

You can swap the planetary gears of course, that's common for AODE's. The 4R gears are stronger than in the AODE, as are the output shafts. That's where buying a 98+ is so wise, all of the questionable parts from past are not in there, all upgraded.

For an engine I think the Cleveland heads are far superior to almost every other aftermarket head. The best of all others have a hard time matching the Cleveland performance. Over there you have tons of parts to work with. Here since 1974 it's been all stock parts, until the aftermarket stuff began turning up. Hopefully there will be 2-3 more intake choices before too long for the Cleveland heads on 302 or 351W blocks.

 

[FIXR7]

Yep, you can change the ratio's in the calibration. here's an excerpt from Clint Garrity' Binary Editor....
GRRAT1 Trans - Gear Ratio First 2.40 to 1
GRRAT4 Trans - Gear Ratio Fourth 0.67 to 1
GRRAT2 Trans - Gear Ratio Second 1.47 to 1
GRRAT3 Trans - Gear Ratio Third 1.00 to 1
Check out http://www.eecanalyzer.net/
open the CBAZA strategy and use a W4HO bin.

Cleveland heads are good alright and the CHI versions are so much better too. Just look at what Jon Kasse does with them.
The cleveland blocks are starting to dry up here now. The problem is also because people don't store the blocks with the core plugs knocked out. They rust through the bottom of the cylinder walls. The later black blocks '80-'85 are harder to find useable now.

 

[FIXR7]

Hey Don,

From memory the AOD is similar in it's physical dimensions to an AODE? I think my biggest hurdle may be the width of the trans in the area where the transfer case runs alongside because the ZF is quite narrow and the AODE is very wide.
Btw I'm having little luck in finding a competent dealer over here...they either try to suggest the 4R70 is not a good gearbox or they want to rip me off $1650 for a 2nd hand '96 Bronco version!?!?!

 

[tweakedlogic]

how about a 93+ 460 EFI? 410 lb-ft torque! not much bigger than your C.

 

[CDW6212R]

The AOD and AODE, and 4R70W, they all have the same size cases and internal parts. There may be a slight difference in the trans mount locations and output shaft lengths.

The 90' Bronco had those transmissions in them for 302/351's. What you have over there may be a little different in the way of which models of parts they are, but still usable. The question would be which case they are, AODE,4R70W etc. Find out more about them, the tag information on the side etc. The very large few letters on that tag can tell you a lot about them. The 98+ models have a different code(that code - four digits I think), than earlier, and the mid 90's would be their own group. Meaning if you can determine that it is an AODE or 4R70W, for a 302/351, then you can probably build it up well.

A used mid 90's trans should be under $500 for very low mileage, and say $250 for high mileage. You want to spend money on upgrades, not for the core trans. Regards,


FYI, the 460 has 10.2" deck heights, the Cleveland is 9.2", much shorter. A 460 is a big monster, thus the 4.5" piston potential and 550+ CI sizing.

 

[FIXR7]

I can borrow my old AOD case I used in my old '66 XR Falcon years ago. Some research has showed that they are the same width, 14.75" across the pan rail which at a glance means I can't use it...DOH!
Yep 460's are 10.3" deck and also much longer so, no fit in a range rover bay plus they're damn heavy!
The only way I'd do a 460 in this car is with a World block windsor but that'd really blow the budget!

 

[FIXR7]

Ok here's the pics.

Looking at it now the AODE is much shorter so it appears it will work with the BW transfer but maybe not with the much bulkier LT230 transfer which comes very close to the side of the ZF.

If I can't use the LT230 I wonder if there are any other BW cases I can use? Remember range rovers are righthand offset for both diffs.

 

[CDW6212R]

The AOD's do use a standard Ford six bolt large shaft pattern, meaning the most common Ford TC's will bolt up. I don't know what TC's that leaves you for a right hand offset output shaft. Some other members here know a lot about Ford transfer case. I'd search here for that answer, and/or call a service company which rebuilds them.

 

[FIXR7]

Thanks Don,

meanwhile Ive found this....
http://www.car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi the mountaineer one with 35k seems reasonably priced?

 

[CDW6212R]

That link doesn't work for me, it's likely tied to your browser and online settings. I get a bad page and a generic website page to the site.

 

[FIXR7]

ok just go car-part.com and punch in '99 Explorer 5.0.

 

[CDW6212R]

I see that they have 41 pages to choose from, and the last ten have no pricing. The lowest there were about $150 and most don't have complete information.

I don't know what shipping would be for a trans to export, that would be a scary number. But if the 4R70W is what you had to have, from over there you would have to figure in those freight charges as part of the total cost.

If that is something possible, I'd compare the freight cost for a whole used trans, versus the freight for just a case and the major internal parts you would need to build it. I think with patience a good relatively lower mileage used trans could be found here. Again, I've bought three used, one 97 model from a burnt truck, before I knew that 98+ was the thing to get. The 98 version I got next was about $400 to me with over 72k, the last one was about $450 total with 29k miles. I'm building that one, and replacing the case bushings as well as using new planetaries, reverse drum and direct drum. So I've got some good used parts that I'd put into another trans some day.

The aftermarket parts needed to build a good 4R are not really heavy, besides the TC. Basically all of the heavy parts(for freight) are stock parts, it's just a matter of mileage on them. I think the new parts I bought will have added a good $500 to my total cost.

 

[FIXR7]

Yep, makes me think it may be better to buy a fully built one from a reputable shop over there? What about the guy's that sponsor this site...they certainly have a lot of good parts.
I think I should get hold of a 4WD extension housing before I do anything else, bang it on this AOD case and see if the trans will actually fit first.
Freight is certainly a killer but I may have another avenue through some guy's who bring in container loads of parts.