Explorer will not start! Please help :)

[steve97601]

Explorer will not start! Please help NOW WITH CODE TEST!

Well a little info I have a 1993 explorer, 4x4, 5 speed with about 159000 miles. I have noticed that over the last couple days it has been acting weird, kind of like it was not running its best. Starting has took two or three times, and it seems to surge a little once and a while when rpm's are lower. Well tonight after work I started it and had to give it a little gas because it seemed to start a little rough. Then about after a minute it died and it would not start. It would begin to start then die. If I keep the gas to the floor it would start and only run if I keep it over 3000 rpm's, but it would sound like crap. Any ideas what it might be? I have read on here for a while but have not seen something like this. Idea's would be great as I think I will have to have it towed from work back to my house.

 

[MrShorty]

My first thought is fuel related. Try to start it (enough to build up pressure in the fuel system), then pull the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator (FPR). If there's is gasoline in that vacuum line, the diaphragm in the FPR has ruptured and you need a new FPR.

If it passes that, I'd next hook up a fuel pressure gauge and see what the fuel pressure is.

I'd also probably pull codes, just in case the PCM has any input on the problem. If nothing else, it's good practice.

 

[steve97601]

Thanks for the idea, I will try that on my day off. I did try to start it again today and it would not start. I think it is a fuel related problem also. But I will have to do some testing. I had originaly thought that the spark plugs needed changing by the way it was running before but I think it might be fuel related. Anymore ideas would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[walterd140]

Fuel, spark, air. The triangle of a happy running motor. Could check the fuel filther, or gas some dry gas. Also check for vacuum leaks. Spray some ether on the vacuum lines. when it runs better, you found a leak.
Lastly, check your air intake system. Have you ever cleaned the mass air flow sensor? It's connected right after the air filther with 2 secure (little button in the middle) torx screws. Take it out & use a q-tip & rubbing alcohol to gently clean the 2 wire filiments (don't break them)

 

[huntman58]

Order I would look
Fuel filter
FPR
Fuel pump
To check out the above use a fuel pressure tester before throwing parts at it except for the filter if you can not remember when it was replaced last it may need it now and there cheap so it’s a never wasted part change.

MAF clean it
I had one that got a speck of oil on it and you would have thought the motor was about to blow up. Would not hardly run or start and when it did it missed some thing bad like it was 180 off. Then trying to drive it, it jerked the truck all over the place tell I got to 3000 RPM's then it would run but way down in power. Cleaned the MAF reset the computer and like magic it ran like normal.
Any way that’s how I would go at it.

 

[steve97601]

Thanks for the help I will have to start digging into it in the morning. With my luck the way it is the day it broke down we got seven inches of snow. It's not fun driving with my KIA Rio in that white stuff, hope to get the explorer running soon. Thanks again!

 

[steve97601]

Well this gets interesting, I went to my rig after it has been sitting for 2 days and it starts right up. Went to two stores shut if off and it started up. Then I went home installed some new plugs, cleaned the mass air sensor, installed a new air filter and put some sea foam in. Then went to start it again and if started and ran for about a minute and then died and wont start again like last time. I can smell gas so I know that its getting it. Also pulled the line to the FPR and it was dry. Starting to wonder if its flooding itself. Cannot get it running to try a pressure gauge. Just wondering why if it sits long enough (like 2 days) it will start but if it runs a while it will not. Any ideas?!! I am kind of at a loss here.

 

[huntman58]

Just a wild stab in the dark but fuel filter. may be unhook the out put side and then hook up a long hose to it to see if your getting any flow from it if not remove it hook the hose up to the line from the tank and try it again if flow now change the filter then start it and do a pressure check. Just be careful of any spilled gas and fumes.

 

[MrShorty]

Cannot get it running to try a pressure gauge.

You can still put a pressure gauge on it and see what it is doing when it won't start.

 

[steve97601]

some test work

Ok so I did the paper clip trick and here is what I got.

KOEO 335 539 then the cm 211 332

KOER 326

I looked these up but I am still not sure what part could be responsible. Any ideas!!

I am uploading the videos to youtube, will post when done in case you want to see the results. Funny thing it started right up again after sitting for a day, it got a mind of its own I swear!

 

[steve97601]

You tube link

Here is a link to my youtube, if you want to watch the test you can!

http://www.youtube.com/user/steve97601?feature=mhsn

 

[FIND]

well you definitely have a bad EGR and you possibly have a bad MAF. Not throwing any codes for a MAF, but is acting like a bad MAF.

Unhook your maf and IAT and see if that changes anything. Take a small hose and hook it up to the vacuum port on your EGR and suck as hard as you can (or use a vacuum pump.... I love those things) too before starting once, and report back what happens or if you aren't feeling any pressure while sucking. Finally, like the other guys have suggested, check fuel pressure. Just turn it to KOEO and hook up the gauge. Also, pull the vacuum hose off fuel pressure regulator and inspect it, then reinstall.

If none of that reveals anything, you need to start checking for spark.

 

[steve97601]

http://flic.kr/p/93KESN

well I did some more test wondering if you guys had any ideas. I made a picture not a good one but might get the point across. If I unplug point A it turns the check engine light on right away, with no idle change. If I unplug B it makes no engine change. And I thought that if the engine is warm point C should get hot but it does not, but the tube going to it does get warm. All vacuum lines seem to be installed correctly. If I unhook the idle control plug the idle gets worse, same thing if I unplug the mass air flow sensor so I think there working. The hose on the fuel pressure regulator seems to be clean and I can feel vacuum from it. But I did stop and start the beast through out the day and it seems to be running ok, so I don't know what is going on. I put a half can of sea foam in it yesterday when I changed the plugs maybe that cleaned something up, but I don't trust that theory.

 

[MrShorty]

SOP is to resolve KOEO codes, followed by KOER codes, then CM codes. I might deviate from that procedure as noted below.

KOEO 335, KOER 332, CM 326 I'd probably assume these three all have the same cause, so I'd focus on the KOEO 335. I don't have an EGR system, so I don't have much experience diagnosing them, but it seems that a KOEO 335 is triggered by an out of range DPFE sensor. These are common, so I'd probably do a reasonable check of the wiring between the DPFE and the PCM. If all checks out, replace the DPFE and see if all of these codes go away.

KOEO 539 is usually "operator error" the computer expects the AC switch to be off, and you've probably got it turned on.

which leaves the CM 211. Gut feel is that this is the cause of your intermittent no start. The PIP signal is generated by the ICM in response to the signal from the CKP, and is the principle signal that tells the PCM that the engine is running. When the PIP signal is not present or is disrupted, the PCM believes that the engine has turned off and it stops firing injectors, turns off the fuel pump, and so on.

1st thing I'd probably do in diagnosing a CM211 is to see how consistent the code is. Clear CM, then test drive and see if the CM211 comes back immediately. If it doesn't, then that indicates that the fault is intermittent, and you'll have to adjust the diagnosis accordingly. If it comes right back, then it could be a hard fault that will be easier to track down.

 

[steve97601]

Thanks for the info guys! Well MrShorty I did leave the battery unhooked for about 2 hours while changing the spark plugs yesterday so I believe that should have reset the computer. So I assume that the computer picked up on it again right away. So I think it would be a hard fault, but why would it only be affected sometimes? I will have to check the wiring for the icm, as those are not cheap! The DPFE sensor could have been bad for a while as the check engine light has been on for some time. But that part is not cheap as well. Would you think the code would be triggered by a bad icm not a bad ckp?

 

[MrShorty]

Would you think the code would be triggered by a bad icm not a bad ckp?

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, because we have to remember that trouble codes point to problems in circuits which are composed of several components. The PCM can't see past the end of its proverbial nose. It only knows that the PIP signal has been interrupted/inconsistent. It was not provided with movable meter leads and a meter to search through the circuit to locate the source of the disruption -- that's your job. Not only would I believe the CKP or ICM could be at fault, I would also be willing to suspect the PCM itself (a burnt circuit/bad connection is disrupting the PIP signal inside the PCM) or any of the connectors/wires between the ICM and PCM and CKP.

So I think it would be a hard fault, but why would it only be affected sometimes?

Where the truck runs sometimes, it suggests to me a loose connection somewhere that is only sometimes disrupting the PIP, but it occurs consistently enough to trigger the trouble code after a short time. First thing I might do would be to go through the appropriate connectors and make sure they are all plugged in tight and that there are no obvious loose connections/broken wires.

Sometimes it helps, when diagnosing these things, to use a systematic, "by the book" approach. Many public libraries have good auto repair reference materials (sometimes even online resources). I would try to locate an "engine performance, emissions, and drivability troubleshooting" manual (or whatever the specific publisher calls it), locate the circuit "pinpoint" test that goes with the CM 211, photocopy it/download it, then take it home and see what I could figure out.