help!!! brakes and wont start!!

[treyeven700]

ok, i have two issues with two different explorers.

first one (which is the most importent) i have a 1992 ex 4x4 5speed that i lifted and when time and money allowed i converted to rear disk brakes. it had rear abs which i bypased so i could bleed them in the first place, and i had to make a custom line set up, (bent the solid lines and added the disk softlines with the driver side supply line plugged and now i cant get the rear brakes to stop sticking) i checked the calipers and pads, (fine) but when i first start driving the brakes are squishy and then all of the sudden, they start getting really firm and then the brakes are stuck and i cant take it out of first gear because the are sticking so bad....


second, i did a motor swap from a 97 soc motor to a 96 sov motor. i changrd the computer and got everything hooked up, (changed motor mount on driverside and the whole exhaust) i even took the starter wiring and changed that, but when i went to start it, i have juice in te car but when the key goes to the start position i get nothing, i have checked the wiring for bad grounds, and double checked everything to ensure it was hooked up, but still nothing.... the motor swap was done that way because i found a 96 with a blown tranny and my 97 had a blown motor. who would have thought it would be this tough!!
any help wou be greatly appreciated!! thanks Trey

 

[Cobraguy]

A couple of ideas. On your brake conversion...did you also switch the master cylinder and proportioning valve? If you went from drums to discs on the rear, those MUST be switched too. Contact Baer for help with this. They can sell you the correct master cylinder, show you how to gut your proportioning valve, and install an adjustable one they can sell you. You will never be happy until you do these things. What is happening is your residual pressure check valve is still in play. You can simply remove that to cure your sticking problem, but you need to fix the rest of it.

Your engine not starting really sounds like a PATS problem. But I can't see where that would be the case on a 1996 computer.

 

[Turdle]

can you try jumping 12 volts to the starter relay and see if the starter bumps?

 

[Cobraguy]

Good idea JT

 

[treyeven700]

that was a good idea, i tried that already thats why i needed help, im not some guy looking to get a quick fix, I am a experienced mechanic who just needed some help incase there was something i wasnt thinking of, so baer brakes and a proportioning valve dont do anything when your going to disk brakes that work perfectly fine from the factory, but i guess i wasnt specific enough. 1997 has the first gen of pats which doesnt need a key fob, but it cuts off the starter circuit via a relay that doesnt work when you mix and match motors of different years ( 1996 ohv motor into a 1997 sohc car) due to the computer. the pats system thinks it isnt talking to the computer so no luck trying to start the car. but a good old screwdriver across the solenoid with the key in the on position will work every time. (magic!!!) so, with the stupid pats relay bypassed car starts just fine...

so to the brakes thing, (1992 ex with drums to 1996 ex disks) still stick after new calipers and pads, new hard lines and rubber lines on all four corners, (master cylinder is fine) but only after driving for 30 minutes or so they stick but when it sits for a about an hour no problem. but when its sticking you cannot even push the car ( no ebrake and not in gear) i lifted each tire at a time and they all spin freely while in the air so any help would be appreciated!!! but i will check the residule pressure valve which i think you are talking about the rear abs block up by the fuel filter and if so i will bypass that to in order to assist me in trouble shooting thanks trey

 

[Cobraguy]

Ok...let me give you a bit of an education on your rear brake conversion. When you have a car that came with drum brakes, you will have a residual check valve. The reason you have this is to keep the pedal from going to the floor when you hit the brakes. The springs on the rear shoes will pull the shoes into the wheel cylinder completely. When you go to apply the brakes, you will need to completely fill the wheel cylinder...and that's not good. So to avoid that, engineers place what is called a residual check valve in the rear brakes. This holds slight pressure in the rear brakes. Just enough that the springs won't collapse the wheel cylinder. Your shoes will very lightly contact the drum when correct and the pedal will have good (short) travel and feel. This check valve is normally located in the rear reservoir outlet of the master cylinder. (by rear, I mean the reservoir that services the rear brakes.) This MUST be removed or when you apply your new disc brakes, since there is no spring pressure to pull the pads back from the rotor, the pads will stay applied with this residual pressure.

Next, the master cylinder for your drum brakes is NOT ok. That master cylinder was never designed to handle the fluid and pressure requirements of rear disks. It MUST be changed to a master cylinder designed for 4 wheel disk brakes.

You must gut the proportioning valve. Again, it's designed for a disk/drum combination. Take the guts out of it and it's now nothing more than a distribution block. But you can't leave it like that. You run the risk of the car swapping ends when braking hard. Therefore, the best solution is an adjustable proportioning valve that is plumbed into the line going to the rear brakes. You then adjust that so that you have proper braking.

Baer can explain this all to you and get you what you need to have a safe and reliable braking system that will perform the way you expect.

Listen, I don't want to be preaching to you here, but I've been doing this for almost 40 years and have a pretty decent resume under my belt. ASE Master, Ford Certified, yada yada yada. And with all that, I would never, ever assume I'm too "good" to learn. I learn something new almost every day. There are some guys here who can really help you look in the right direction if you will listen. This brake thing is one of them. I've done several of these conversions with different makes. I have a good idea of what you're fighting.

One more thing...if you are working with ABS, all bets are off. I would definitely contact Baer (or another quality company...but Baer really knows what they are doing and are willing to help) as you may need to swap an entire ABS system to make that right.

 

[treyeven700]

first I want to say, cobraguy, i wasnt trying to come off as a smart@ss, and thanks for the education, and any help will be really appreciated however i did change the master cylinder and i didnt put a proportioning valve on. i was aware that needed to be changed, i had a donor vehicle on hand and i took everything that i could possibly need ( i have a sh*t ton of extra stuff now!!!) but im still tring to find the propotioning valve you are talking about. please enlighten me!! i like to learn and am willing to listen to the pro so i may learn. oh yeah, the only thing i dont agree with is the greatest city on earth, (im from san antonio, haha) and by the way what do you know about the stupid rap module? and can i pick your brain about it? thanks

 

[Cobraguy]

Your rear calipers don't have provisions for an emergency brake cable, right? The E brake is on the axle and the calipers are for that design and weren't swapped somewhere along the line? I still think you have a residual check valve somewhere by the sound of it. I'm backing up to an earlier post though. Do you have ABS on this? I don't recall on a 92 what system...if any...is used. If so, you really need to talk to someone like Baer or maybe someone else here who's been through this. I haven't done a conversion with ABS like that. I've done them by swapping the entire system into a vehicle...and that is a job.

Ask any questions you care to. If I can't help you...and there is a lot I can't help with...some folks are here that can.

 

[treyeven700]

what do you mean by provisions for the ebrake? i took everything from a spare axle and transferred it over including the ebrakes. after the swap the disks have mini drum brakes inside them. so i traded the ebrake cables from the pedal back to the mini drums on the 92 ex. I agree about the residual pressure, because the problem doesnt start untill i drive it for a while, and it goes away after the car sits for an hour. i will investigate the abs thing, but i was pretty sure the aluminum block next to the fuel filter was for the abs though but it only has rear abs.

and i figured out the not starting thing. first the remote is broke so i couldnt get the rap to disarm the system, so i unplugged the rap module and plugged it back in (bad idea) the horn wouldnt stop honking after that unless the module was unplugged. after so fustrations and trying all the little tricks like turning the key on and off five times, i was able to reset the rap by plugging it back in and using the key in the driver door to lock and unlock. that made the system reset and horn stop honking! so after about a week i am now able to start the car with they key and not the screwdriver! now i need a new remote and im good!

so thanks for all the help and tons of info from the site and i will keep trying on the brakes