No crank no start on 06 v8

[Explorer_PL]

In the past few weeks I had some starting and charging issues. I thought I had a short somewhere, or bad alternator, or bad battery.
I had the battery replaced under warranty, the alternator is charging, mid 13's, not great but works, and finally I started looking at the starter and found the nut on the positive lead from the battery loose on the post.
I fixed that and the car was starting like new for few days.
This morning I went to start it and nothing happens. I have over 12 v on the battery, but I get nothing on the ignition feed to the starter. I jumped the starter posts and the car started right away.

But what are the places I need to look to see where I am loosing the ignition signal ?

I checked the fuse and the relay under the hood on the fuse box.
What would be the signs of bad ignition switch ?
And where is the neutral switch ?

What else to look for ?????
I am puzzled.

 

[07EddyB]

Did you replace the battery during your starting problems? Charge the battery overnight and see if it helps. I'm not sure it's recovered yet from the starting issues and the somewhat low alternator voltage.

 

[suzook]

In the past few weeks I had some starting and charging issues. I thought I had a short somewhere, or bad alternator, or bad battery.
I had the battery replaced under warranty, the alternator is charging, mid 13's, not great but works, and finally I started looking at the starter and found the nut on the positive lead from the battery loose on the post.
I fixed that and the car was starting like new for few days.
This morning I went to start it and nothing happens. I have over 12 v on the battery, but I get nothing on the ignition feed to the starter. I jumped the starter posts and the car started right away.

But what are the places I need to look to see where I am loosing the ignition signal ?

I checked the fuse and the relay under the hood on the fuse box.
What would be the signs of bad ignition switch ?
And where is the neutral switch ?

What else to look for ?????
I am puzzled.

Check the wire that goes from the relay on starter to the starter motor. Mine was rotted causing issues.

 

[07EddyB]

Have someone start the car while you monitor the battery voltage.

 

[Explorer_PL]

Thanks, hmmm, voltage drop somewhere .....
Did not think of it.
Need to wait for my son to come home.

PS: Also, the starter is new as well, no corrosion on the wire from the solenoid to the starter motor.

 

[07EddyB]

Which test did you do? The one suggested by suzook or by me?

 

[Explorer_PL]

None yet
I'll check the voltage tomorrow during start up. The temperature dropped to about 5 now, it's soooooo cold here and the car is outside.
Now I am thinking maybe my remote starter has something to do with it ......
What did Suzook suggest ?

 

[tripplec]

I went through odd no crank !! starting issue this summer. No cold related which is entirely different. It was intermittent. I'd go shopping come back to the vehicle and nothing. Dahhh, I thought it was the immobilizer and other stuff but the START relay was not energizing !! NOTE: This was not on an Explorer but a Sante Fe. Never the less a lot of newer vehicles use START relay. You have to verify first it if its actually closing and/or electrically being switched.

How i got to the bottom of the issue I first go a few tools to tap into the contacts and short the power terminals of the relay (simulating the relay switches using two allen tools). Each time I had the problem I'd leave the ignition in the run position, pop the hood and the relay out. Jump the two contacts and the engine turned over starting each time. Hence either the relay was faulty (I got another one but it wasn't it), I did not trouble shoot thoughly enough assumit it was it. I failed to start the same day I changed it. It turn out to be a bad ground at one of the fender ground points. All vehicles have many ground points and even slight resistance can make circuits fail. Under the hood are the prime candidates. Cleaning both the lugs on the cable, bolt and mating surface cured the issues.

The START Relay should be looked at carefully as a culprit and is always in the under the hood Power Distribution box. Snag one from any vehicle at the wreckers for backup if you visit them now and then. Hope this help out.

PS: Its been down to -28C hear last week and -23C this morning with the new year coming in at a forecasted -24C. A tab bit colder I'd say...burrr

 

[07FordExplorerEB]

I had a similar problem this past summer. I hit the starter a few times with hammer while second person turned the ignition. Starter cranked. Please note this can happen even with a rebuilt starter. So if you replace the starter and it happens again don't rule out your new starter. You could get a bad new starter like I did. I returned the new starter for replacement and this one works like a champ.

 

[tripplec]

Maybe and if so lucky other than the pain replacing it again. I don't think it happens that often but its worth a Whack or two for sure if he can get at it. Jumping the starter relay is a much simpler stand up job. Pull the relay, locate to two power in/out terminals (not the coil two) of which one will have 12V at it and with two small tools (one touching each of the contacts and move them together making the contact above on the shafts if you will. That way you're not burning the brass contacts the relay goes into. The spark is between the two items used. I use two allen wrenchs for the job. If it cranks then you know its the start circuit if not the something else such as the starter or other main item below.

 

[Explorer_PL]

Problem solved.....
Thanks to all replies; Tripplec, EddyB, Suzook, and 07EB.
Another update that I am ashamed of putting out there but what the heck - have fun guys.
Also, I do not want to be the guy who starts posts and never finishes them

As a recap: I was able to start the car by jumping the 12v feed on the solenoid with the positive post on the starter motor itself and it started. Not sure why, I concluded that my starter is bad.
This was a Motorcraft "new" re manufactured unit 998-RM, but I figured it could be bad as well.
I installed it back in September only because the original one that came with the car had over 250k miles/12 years on it and I thought for a piece of mind I'll replace it when it's nice and warm.
I kept the original one in my garage so being stubborn and not thinking clearly, I went ahead and put back the old one in - sounds easy, but those 2 hours in 10 degree weather took a toll on my hands.....
I go to start the car and same nothing - now I am pissed.
I go back inside, pull my Ford workshop manuals with wiring diagrams and start studying the "starting system" section. Looks pretty straightforward. Go back to the car, and start tracing the voltage and everything looks OK ???
I have 12v on all the fuses, get to the relay under the hood, stick the test light in the pin # 30 (feed from the battery) and it's good. Then I put it on terminal # 86, go inside and turn the key and the test light comes on - so I am getting the signal from the ignition switch which was my prime suspect.
I then shorted # 30 and # 87 (87 is the one feeding the solenoid) and the car started, so I knew the connection from the BJB (battery junction box) to the starter is good.
At that point I bench-tested the relay and it was closing so I figured it does not get grounded/energized when I turn the key.
So I was expecting the other side of the coil to be marked as GND (terminal # 85) but on the diagram # 85 is marked as "YE" going to the PCM ????
I start poking under the hood looking for yellow wire going to PCM, and then I see that the top main connector on the pass side to the PCM is not "locked".
Then it hit me what I did: few nights before I saw some drops of antifreeze coming from the infamous Y heater split. To get there I moved some harness and unplugged the PCM to have better access. I plugged it back in but never locked the plastic lever and I guess the pin from the relay starter did not have a good connection.

Can anybody explain if the 85 side on the relay marked as PCM is just ground ?

Since I always look for positives in that type of stuff - I learnt quite a bit about the starting system. I wasted few hours replacing perfectly good starter since I did not do the right diagnosis but I am not that good with electrical problems yet so I am learning. For most of you guys here, it would be obvious. But now I am more "educated"


PS: I will need to put the "new" starter back and fight with that top bolt - what a pain, but this will have to wait when it gets over 40

 

[tripplec]

Too bad you didn't try this step first as I had mentioned.

"
I then shorted # 30 and # 87 (87 is the one feeding the solenoid) and the car started, so I knew the connection from the BJB (battery junction box) to the starter is good."

A lot of vehicles I find pull ground to close the relay and supply the 12VDC when ignition is on and other requirement are met via another relay. Been through that on my SF.

Good you're running at least. Cheers

 

[Explorer_PL]

Yeah, I know ...Tripplec

You learn on mistakes
Thanks anyway

 

[tripplec]

Yeah tried to shorten the learn curve on this. I was weeks isolating my not start and just hopped out and jumped the relay until I figured out why the coil wasn't being energized. A poorly engineered ground point on a strut tower was the culprit which was originally painted and only the bolt threads making the connection. I did clean it years ago but redid it better this time.

 

[Explorer_PL]

Yep, cleaning the connections (ground, battery) on any vehicle over few years old should be a routine maintenance.
Last week my wife's Murano would not start due to a weak battery. It happened right next to a repair shop that I use sometimes. Very nice guys but they wanted to sell a new battery right away.

I asked them just to jump start it and I'll look at it at home. I knew I bought that battery 10 months ago. The clamps were green and corroded. Cleaned them up with a wire brush and it starts like a new car.

 

[tripplec]

Ouch must be leaking acid then from the battery to be green which will eat the copper conductor as you know. Greasing it up all around is all you can do without getting it replaced if its still warranty at 10 months it should be.

 

[Explorer_PL]

Warranty is 3 years. So you think it's acid from the battery ?

 

[tripplec]

If you're getting corrosion definitely the seal around the post is likely leaking otherwise a cell is bubbling out but they are usually sealed on top. It will continue to happen and you'll be replacing the battery lugs or cable if you have to cut it back to clean copper too far.

 

[tripplec]

On a related note to cleaning the acid if as bad as you've indicated. Older style Lead connectors are better and easier to clean and impervious to the acid but the metal plated ones are not nor its the conductor being copper. If its got to the cable area you can use a neutralizing solutions.

A cup/container of water with a tablespoon or more of regular Baking Soda. (I does not have to dissolve) Dunk the connector into the container and it will foam profusely for a while and once all the acid has been dealt with the foaming stops unless insufficient baking soda was used or to little water in a small container. The liquid is not harmful to anything! You can repeat if in doubt. This can stop corrosion around the copper area if dipped deep enough or you can simple brush it around the lug and post area but ideally you don't want it entering the battery as it would affect the electrolyte. Dry and clean the surfaces of any oxidization and most of the metal lugs are plated to protect them using only those wire post cleaners is best rather than emery cloth or a file would remove the plating if not already gone.

 

[Explorer_PL]

Thanks, will do when it gets warmer