Oil analysis data repository

[Rhett]

Rhett:

Just curious if you ran the same filter the entire 8000 miles.

Yes, I did run the same filter. I probably should have changed the filter at the halfway point, and topped off. But then again, if I did that, I would have "tainted" my used oil with a quart of new.

Aren't mid stream filter changes recommended with the newer extended life oils?

I don't know, actually. I should read up on it. I'm not going to go 8000 miles this time around, mainly because of the possible coolant in the oil. If it's a slow gasket leak, it may not leak enough in 4000 miles to do any harm. But 8000 miles, it might. With my driving habits, 8000 miles is a year or even a bit longer. That's pretty long time to have the same oil in there, no matter how good it is, if you've got a slow gasket leak, which I may have.

Why didn't they give you an antifreeze #...seems kind of odd since the summary indicates a possible coolant problem?

I think Blackstone believes that I may have put some Red Line additive in, or something like that. I did not, of course, but they would have no way to tell. So interestingly, they left off the antifreeze% number...

 

[Rhett]

Has your coolant level dropped any? Just something to watch for.

Here's the deal on coolant and my truck: I have noticed, for the last 4 years or so, that the truck will lose/use coolant over a long period...if I fill to the "cold fill" line, then run the truck for 4-5 months, open the hood, and inspect the coolant level when cold, it will have dropped about 1/4 of an inch on the overflow tank in that time. So it's definitely losing coolant somewhere, but very slowly.

I used to attribute it to a bad hose clamp on the upper rad hose (it routinely had white crust on it's rad end). But I've fixed that little problem.

I would say a slow gasket leak is a possibility. There is not enough there to make the oil frothy, or produce moisture on the oil filler cap. But over 8000 miles, 1.2 years, that's enough to produce the higher sodium and Calcium results. My thinking is if I change at 4,000 miles this time, the Na and Ca levels won't be out of the ordinary--that is assuming this leakage is slow enough that in 4000 miles (8 months) not enough time will have passed to really contaminate the oil. Is this an ok way of thinking?

This sample thickened well beyond a 30 weight. It is now a "thick" 40 weight. As I mentioned above, the higher viscosity doesn't seem to affect wear. It just costs some fuel economy. Typical for certain Amsoil formulations.

I have been thinking about switching over to Amsoil Series 2000 0W-30, as I believe it is a newer formulation. The 10W-30 has been around a while.
My concern is that because I have a wet rear main seal--which does not drip with 10W--might have problems with the 0W.

So the next sample will have 4,000 miles on the oil again (2000 miles left to go). If I make a run to Denver this summer I'll reach that mark soon enough. I hope it's not a gasket leak, or, if it is, that the leak is slow and not getting worse. I can live with 4-5,000 mile changes if that's what it takes to keep the Na and Ca down.

 

[85Dave]

If you are going to change your oil at 4-5000 miles, using synthetic oil is a waste of money. Especially with the new SM/GF4 oils on the market. Most of the "dino" oils today are "synthetic" blends. I would suggest a top notch conventional oil such as Pennzoil or Havoline. I would also consider the new line of Mobil Clean 5000/7500 oils. Rumor has it that MC5000 is Group III, and MC7500 is Group III with 15% Group IV. Rumor also has it that Trop-Artic "synthetic blends" contain Groups III and V. If so, TA would be the best bang-for-the-buck.

 

[Rhett]

If you are going to change your oil at 4-5000 miles, using synthetic oil is a waste of money.

Well, I don't disagree with that. But why do you think that I plan to change every 4 or 5 thousand miles from here on out? I may change it at 4000 next time only to see how much Ca is in there, but maybe the time after that I'll go 8000 miles again. Depends on what the analysis finds.

What I'm trying to determine here is the best oil change interval for my truck. It may be 6000 miles, it may be 12000 miles, it may be 4000 miles. That's the whole point of me getting these oil analyses.

 

[85Dave]

Good point, Rhett. If you really want to dial in your oil, I would suggest using a professional service. The guy I use is Terry Dyson with Dyson Analysis. I would give you a link to his website, but I don't know if I'm allowed to do that since he isn't a sponsor here. You could always do a google search, though. He's in Greenville, Texas. He charges about $35 or $40, which includes the oil analysis complete with TBN. I would especially recommend his service to anyone who may be having a problem, such as coolant in the oil.

Blackstone is a good lab (Terry uses them), but their reading of the results isn't the best. Terry's only business is interpreting oil analysis. He doesn't sell anything. Terry will also interpret previous samples for a fee. It might be worth your money.

 

[aldive]

Dyson Analysis - http://0041517.netsolhost.com/

You can also purchase Terry's services through Blackstone.

 

[aldive]

The data presented below is from my '99 SOHC using Amsoil Bypass filtration ( http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126111&highlight=bypass ). The oil used is Amsoil Series 2000 0W30 ( Dead Link Removed ). The mileage on this oil sample is 7679 miles.

The full flow filter ( Amsoil SDF-15 ) was changed at this sample interval and 1 quart of makeup Amsoil Series 2000 0W30 oil added. The bypass filter, Amsoil BE-90, was not changed.

The UOA was performed by Blackstone Labs ( Dead Link Removed ).

The first ( of 4 ) column represents the virgin oil ( VOA ), the second is a previous sample of this oil ( at 5120 miles ), next is the current sample, and the last represents Blackstone’s average of data collected for this type motor.

Aluminum 0 2 5 5
Chromium 0 1 1 1
Iron 2 8 14 16
Copper 0 5 9 6
Lead 0 2 5 4
Tin 0 0 1 1
Zinc 0 1 3 1
Molybdenum 0 4 7 43
Nickel 0 0 0 0
Manganese 0 0 0 1
Silver 0 0 0 0
Titanium 0 0 0 0
Potassium 0 0 0 2
Boron 64 31 28 47
Silicon 4 5 7 9
Sodium 0 1 2 18
Calcium 1722 2054 2176 2039
Magnesium 598 751 831 202
Phosphorus 822 935 879 748
Zinc 958 1081 1021 893
Barium 0 0 0 1


TBN 12.0, 4.9, 3.3


Blackstone's comments: You've pushed the miles oil use up to 7,679 miles and the wear metals reside at around average levels (see universal average wear), so this oil is getting the job done for you. Average miles oil use for one of our samples from this type engine is 4,375. The TBN was 3.3, down from 4.9 last sample, but still showing plenty of active additive remaining.

 

[Rhett]

Rhett:
Just curious if you ran the same filter the entire 8000 miles.

Yes I did.

Your #'s are higher in all categories vs your 4000 mile #'s. Aren't mid stream filter changes recommended with the newer extended life oils? Maybe the filter is at least partially to blame. Probably the only way to confirm this is to give them one more 8000 mile sample that had a filter change at 4000.

I do think that they recommend mid-stream filter changes...I'm not sure but I think so. But I have always assumed that meant if you were going to run 15,000 or 25,000 miles on the oil, or some ungodly high number like that.

Why didn't they give you an antifreeze #...seems kind of odd since the summary indicates a possible coolant problem?

I think they put the ? there because they were not sure if it was Red Line or if it was coolant. They still should have given me a value, but that's ok. All I can say is, the Na and Ca they found could not have been Red Line because I don't run Red Line.

I still don't understand the viscosity #'s though.

I don't either, except that from what I have gathered over the years, AMSOIL runs their stuff thicker. An AMSOIL 30 weight will generally have higher viscosity than a Mobil-1 30 weight, at least to the best of my knowledge...
Dave85 in his post above pretty much says that too, and I know he is pretty knowlegeable from other posts on this site.

I got my latest oil analysis now (sample taken 10/24/05). I will post it next...

 

[Rhett]

Here is the third oil analysis I have had done. The sample was taken about 10/24/05, and there was exactly 6,135 miles on the oil.

If you'll recall, the second oil analysis (posted above) I had 8,000 miles on the oil, and the first analysis (also posted above) had 4,000 miles on the oil. So this time I went halfway in between.

The data presented below is from my '94 OHV. The oil used is Amsoil 10W30.

The analysis was by Blackstone Labs ( Dead Link Removed )

The first column is my sample and the second column represents an average of data collected for this type motor.
My oil @ 6135 mi average 94 OHV's oil
Aluminum 5 6
Chomium 1 1
Iron 18 20
Copper 6 7
Lead 7 8
Tin 3 2
Molybdenum 5 7
Nickel 0 0
Manganese 1 1
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 7 9
Boron 17 19
Silicon 7 9
Sodium 9 8
Calcium 1937 2166
Magnesium 710 737
Phosphorus 858 916
Zinc 843 1045
Barium 0 0

TBN was 3.2
My oil Values should be
Viscosity 74.6 58-66
Flashpoint 390 >370
%Fuel <0.5 <1.0
%Antifreeze 0 0
%Water 0 <0.1
%Insolubles 0.5 <0.6

Blackstone Lab's Comments: You didn't mention Red Line or some kind of additive that may have caused the potassium or sodium in the last sample, but they have dropped this time around. Lead dropped too. If the only thing you changed between the last sample and this one is the miles you ran the oil, then the shorter interval is probably the reason everything improved. If that's the case, we recommend staying at 5000-6000 miles until everything returns to normal. The TBN read 3.2, still some active additive left in the oil. Check back to monitor. Nice improvement.

 

[smiley1]

Great job Al. Thanks for the compilation of data.

Rob.

 

[Rhett]

TBN comparison

Noting all the TBN (total base number) values posted, here's a breakdown as of today (12/5/05):

Keep in mind that I think oil with zero miles on it has a TBN of 12.0:

Rhett (AMSOIL 10W-30, NO filter bypass, no half interval filter change):
after 4000 miles TBN was 3.7
after 6135 miles TBN was 3.2
after 8000 miles TBN was 2.1

Aldive (AMSOIL 0W-30, filter bypass, half interval filter change):
after 5120 miles TBN was 4.9
after 7679 miles TBN was 3.3

Al is getting better TBN's. I don't know if this is because he uses the 0W-30 or if it is because he has a filter bypass and changes his filter halfway through with 1 quart of make-up oil. I'm sure the make-up oil helps a lot. Thoughts, questions, comments???

 

[aldive]

20k ( almost ) UOA Report

The data offered below is from my '99 SOHC using Amsoil Bypass filtration ( Dead Link Removed ). And Amsoil Series 2000 0W30 ( Dead Link Removed ). The mileage on this oil sample is 19,848 iles.

No filters were changed and no make up oil added at this sampling.

The UOA on this sample, as well as all the others, was performed by Blackstone Labs ( Dead Link Removed ).

The first ( of 5 ) column represents the virgin oil ( VOA ), the second is a previous sample of this oil ( at 5120 miles ), the third is a previous sample at 7679 miles, the fourth is the current sample and the last represents Blackstone’s average of data collected for this type motor.

Aluminum 0 2 5 6 5
Chromium 0 1 1 1 1
Iron 2 8 14 23 16
Copper 0 5 9 8 6
Lead 0 2 5 4 4
Tin 0 0 1 1 1
Molybdenum 0 4 7 10 43
Nickel 0 0 0 1 0
Manganese 0 0 0 0 1
Silver 0 0 0 0 0
Titanium 0 0 0 0 0
Potassium 0 0 0 0 2
Boron 64 31 28 15 47
Silicon 4 5 7 13 9
Sodium 0 1 2 3 18
Calcium 1722 2054 2176 1907 2039
Magnesium 598 751 831 525 202
Phosphorus 822 935 879 736 748
Zinc 958 1081 1021 875 893
Barium 0 0 0 0 1
---------------------------

TBN 12.0, 4.9, 3.3, 2.3

---------------------------
This sample Typical Amsoil 0W-30
Viscosity @ 210degF: 70.6 56-64
Flashpoint in deg F 410 400 >395
Fuel% < 0.5 <2.0
Antifreeze% 0 0.0
Water% 0 0.0
Insolubles % 0.5 < 0.6


Blackstone's comments: AL: Wow, almost 20,000 miles on this oil and your wear still looks good. The thing about long oil changes is, not all engines can handle them. If your engine makes a lot of metal, it builds up and causes abrasion, which wears down parts. But your Explorer is handling the long oil changes like a champ, and we see no reason to stop at 19,848 miles. The oil is still in place so we suggest running another 4000-5000 miles and then checking back to see where things stand. The TBN read 2.3, so the oil still has active additive in it. The viscosity is a bit thick. Check back.

My conclusions: This is the one year anniversary of using the Bypass filtration on this oil. The Bypass filter has not been changed.

This UOA proves the validity of extended OCI using bypass filtration.

I shall resample in another 5k miles ( 25k total ).

 

[Rhett]

Al, your TBN of 2.3 at 20,000 miles is better than the TBN I get (2.1) at 8,000 miles.
I cannot account for the difference, other than you using 0W-30 and me using 10W-30.

 

[aldive]

Al, your TBN of 2.3 at 20,000 miles is better than the TBN I get (2.1) at 8,000 miles.
I cannot account for the difference, other than you using 0W-30 and me using 10W-30.

Are you using bypass filtration? Are you using Series 200 oil?

 

[85Dave]

TBN is reduced by acids in the oil. Filtration has no effect on this number. The main source of the acids is sulfur and nitrogen compounds in the fuel. These compounds form sulfuric and nitric acid during the combustion process. Fuels vary by region and refinery. Unless you are running identical fuel (i.e. from the same gas station) you will see differences in TBN. Keep in mind that any given brand of fuel is different throughout regions, and even within a city. It can even vary at the same gas station depending on where the last load of gas came from.

Al, your used oil analysis looks good. I'll give you my amateur read on it. Wear metals (Al, Cr, Fe, Cu, Pb, Sn, Ni, Mn, Si, Ti) are low, especially considering the total miles on this sample.
Additive compounds (Mo, B, Na, Ca, Mg, P, Zn, Ba) are oil specific. These numbers are in ranges commonly found in oils.
Potassium is from antifreeze. This low number indicates that there is no antifreeze present.
Silicon is from dirt, usually throught the air filtration system. Your number looks good indicating that the air filtration system is tight.
TBN is decreasing with mileage as is expected. The TBN method Blackstone uses has a lower safety limit of 1.0. You are above this lower limit, so there is enough "active ingredient" for continued use.
The viscosity is out of range for a 30 weight. There is a lot of debate about the effects of high viscosity. One well document effect is decreased fuel mileage. If high fuel mileage is a concern for you, you may consider changing the oil.
Flashpoint, fuel, antifreeze, and water all look good indicating no coolant or fuel leaks into the oil system.
Insolubles is high at 0.5%. Many oil analyzers consider 0.5% the upper limit, and an indication that the oil should be changed. I would suggest changing the oil filter and resampling in a few thousand miles to see if the insolubles come down. If they don't, then an oil change is indicated.

General comment. This extended oil change seems to be working well for you, Al. However, different driving patterns (short trips vs. long highway miles), different fuels, different states of engine tune, etc. will have a tremendous impact on the optimal oil change frequency. Even fuel economy comes into play. The lower the fuel mileage, the more frequently the oil should be changed. The fuel contaminants previously mentioned accumulate in the oil based on how much fuel is burned. Therefore more fuel = more contaminants which lowers TBN.

I would caution anyone reading this to not draw general conclusions about oil change frequency, and apply them specifically to your vehicle. If one is interested in optimal OCIs, do as Al does and start your own sampling program.

Keep us updated, Al.

 

[Rhett]

Are you using bypass filtration? Are you using Series 200 oil?

No bypass filtration. AMSOIL 10W-30 is not a Series 2000 oil. I am considering switching to AMSOIL 0W-30 Series 2000 soon.

I read with great interest 85Daves post above, too. I think my driving conditions (start and stop), engine, gas, temps, etc. are all quite different from yours Al. I do consistently buy gas from the same pump at the same BP station whenever I can. Still I cannot account for the TBN decreases, other than to mention the above differences between our trucks.

 

[aldive]

25k UOA data available at http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1417598#post1417598

 

[Rhett]

Al great results there. I plan to switch to the new EAO filter and Series 2000 soon. I still have some spare SDF-15 filters laying around so I'll use them up first. Have they stopped making the SDF filters?

Your 15W-40-level viscosity is consistent with what I experience with AMSOIL oil analysis results--that it does thicken over time.

 

[aldive]

Al great results there. I plan to switch to the new EAO filter and Series 2000 soon. I still have some spare SDF-15 filters laying around so I'll use them up first. Have they stopped making the SDF filters?

Your 15W-40-level viscosity is consistent with what I experience with AMSOIL oil analysis results--that it does thicken over time.

Yes they stopped making the SDT filters; replaced by EAO.

 

[rizzjc]

Here are two samples that I've done on my truck. The first, done at 120k miles on truck, and 15k on oil (column 1). Most recent done at 134k miles on truck, and 9k on oil (column 2). First sample is of Amsoil Series 2000 0W30, and second is of Amsoil XL7500 5W30 (long story, not to be covered here).

Aluminum 13 49
Chromium 6 10
Iron 224 187
Copper 31 26
Lead 63 52
Tin 7 0
Molybdenum 13 25
Nickel 7 11
Manganese na na
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 0 0
Boron 6 6
Silicon 42 86
Sodium 7 0
Calcium 2387 3242
Magnesium 398 203
Phosphorus 1025 1029
Zinc 1381 1237
Barium 0 0
---------------------------

TBN 6.71 1.95

---------------------------
Viscosity @ 100degC: 21.05 11.27
Fuel% <1 <1
Antifreeze% 0 0
Water% 0 0

Obviously I have a dirt problem. PCV was recommended to be changed the last time, and I've finally found the darn thing. Soon I plan to seafoam, replace PCV, and put the Series 2000 0W30 back in (which I've used for most of the 134k miles already on the truck). Then I'm going to do samples at 5k, and go from there until I get things cleaned back up.