Old wives tale...

[ajevenson]

I grew up on the farm and all the farmers used to put ATF in thier oil both on heavy machinery and their personal vehicles (about 250 ml) after an oil change. They said ATF has a detergent in it or something that helps continually clean carbon deposits out.

And also, once the the oil is drained out of the pan during an oil change, these guys would fill up the oil pan and crankcase to full with diesel (no oil in the entire engine!) and start the vehicle and let it run for about 20-30 seconds. Supposedly there are enough oils in the diesel that the engine wont sieze and the diesel can flow into smaller openings and remove varnish, carbon, etc.

Any truth to either of these, anyone else do this or heard of this before? I've been doing this on my vehicles for several years now and it seems to really clean out the system, but am I tempting fate here?

 

[spiper]

Dont do it on a newer engine. This was only done on older models to clean out metal shavings or extremely dirty motors such as one that has been running in the fields with alot of dust or dirt. The only other time would be on a rebuilt motor when you know for certain that there has been busted pistons or rings. In other words you know there is metal shavings present. If your engine has siezed up this will help free up the rings. If you are just changing your oil this will just cause excess wear and tear.

 

[aldive]

Are theses the same folks that say a snapping turtle won't let go from bitting you till it thunders?

Sounds like my kin fiilk talking.... but don't believe a word of it.

 

[spiper]

Its a tarapin that wont let go until it thunders. A snappin turtle will just take your finger and go!

 

[nosaj122081]

The ATF trick is NOT a wive's tail, it does clean up the inside of an engine... It isn't the detergents (alot of ATF has fewer detergents than oil), its just the nature of the ATF, it has the ability to disolve certain types of deposits... FYI, when rotary engines carbon lock, you pour ATF in the plug hole, let it sit over night, and crank it up the next day, back to life. Like the other poster said though, not sure if I'd try it in a new engine, it can cause leaks. But it does clean up deposits fairly well.

Never heard of the diesel trick, so I can't comment on that one.

 

[Triton46]

I added ATF to my 91 and opened up a leak on the driver side lower manifold gasket. That was about 10,000 miles ago, since then the leak has slowly closed up again.

I think its safe to use the ATF on newer seals, but be aware that if there is a crack...it will find it.

 

[aldive]

Oil additives should not be used. The oil companies have gone to great lengths to develop an additive package that meets the vehicle's requirements. Some of these additives are synergistic, that is the effect of two additives together is greater than the effect of each acting separately. If you add anything to the oil you may upset this balance and prevent the oil from performing to specification

 

[nosaj122081]

Originally posted by aldive
Oil additives should not be used. The oil companies have gone to great lengths to develop an additive package that meets the vehicle's requirements. Some of these additives are synergistic, that is the effect of two additives together is greater than the effect of each acting separately. If you add anything to the oil you may upset this balance and prevent the oil from performing to specification

The use of oil additives for designed for a specific reason (such as adding ATF to the crankcase to break up deposits) is just fine to do, and will do the job much better than any oil on the market. As goes for using Marvel Mystery Oil to quiet lifters, engine flush to clean, etc. etc. Generic additives like Slick 50, Durablend, etc. don't do anything for performance, but hell, neither does synth. oil, but people always use it and always buy it. But cleaners do work and are fine to use.

 

[aldive]

Originally posted by nosaj122081


The use of oil additives for designed for a specific reason (such as adding ATF to the crankcase to break up deposits) is just fine to do, and will do the job much better than any oil on the market. As goes for using Marvel Mystery Oil to quiet lifters, engine flush to clean, etc. etc. Generic additives like Slick 50, Durablend, etc. don't do anything for performance, but hell, neither does synth. oil, but people always use it and always buy it. But cleaners do work and are fine to use.

First can you provide information that proves the value of addativees? Please post it.

The use of a quality motor oil and normal oil chanf\ge ass well as filter changes will no leave deposits in your engine. I have rebuilt many suchj motors and have never seen deposits that you mention.

Further, synthetic oil does indeed improve performance and increases fuel mileage.

Thanks....

 

[nosaj122081]

Originally posted by aldive


First can you provide information that proves the value of addativees? Please post it.

Yup, I've actually used them to perform certain tasks... I've disolved blockages, disolving coke, and cleaning residue in turbo oil lines with ATF, I've freed carbon-locked rotary engines with additives, and flushing the 351C in my Mustang with an oil+ATF mix cleared the oiling lines that the 351C is infamous for after a cam swap in which some of the assembly lube clogged lines, solving my oiling problems. I've also used Marvel's to quiet noisy lifters down, although I just used it as a band-aid until I replaced them. Nothing wrong with not using them, don't get me wrong, but it is perfectly acceptable and they do perform as needed when a certain task is in mind, as opposed to a cure-all additive.

The use of a quality motor oil and normal oil chanf\ge ass well as filter changes will no leave deposits in your engine. I have rebuilt many suchj motors and have never seen deposits that you mention.

How many miles did these engines you rebuild have on them?... I've never opened any moderately milage engine and found it to be 100% absolutely clean. No matter how often or what quality products you use, you can always stick a finger in a nook or cranny in an engine and scrape off some goop. Pop the valve covers off your engine, and and run your finger along the edge of the head... Nasty, gritty-feeling, sludge, also caked in spots in oil pans.

Further, synthetic oil does indeed improve performance and increases fuel mileage.

Thanks....

No it doesn't. People want it to feel faster, so it is. I run synthetic in my Mach, my Explorer, and my 2 Talons. ABSOLUTELY no performance difference; the only reason I run it is for the temperature characteristics for the Talons and the extended change intervals in the naturally asperated vehicles. If anyone has a subscription to Consumer Reports, in one of the OLD issues (circa 1995-96) they did a test of conventional, semi-, and synthetics (CR is one of the few publications I'll believe, no ads, no $$$). No differences other than synthetics having improved viscosity characteristics; the synthetic wasn't effected as much by temperature extremes, starts and stops, etc, which is consistant to what I've observed, so I tend to agree. Which is why I ran it in the high temp Talons, and why its probably a waste for me to use it in my Explorer.

 

[aldive]

The last 2 motors...

a Nissan 4 banger with 300k miles and 2 Chevy 350 out of a commercial boat with over 400 hours on them.

Not 100% clean, thats impossible, but extremely clean and NO deyerctable deposits.

 

[tbomb]

first of all i totally agree with nosaj122081 about the synthetic oil thing. i use mobil 1 synthetic all the time because it allows me to sleep at night; i know im ok if i have to go an extra 1000 miles past an oil change interval (though i NEVER do, but thats just me.) i dont use it because i get more power or better gas mileage, because i know that i DO NOT get those results. people who say they do, want to think they do, like nosaj122081 said.

secondly, al, i find it terribly hard to believe that youre down in florida rebuilding motors, when no more than a month ago you couldnt figure out how to access the mounting bolts on your tranny cooler on your truck, of all things. i had to give you more than a little insight, which is totally fine, but what youre claiming is equivalent to saying that you cant read or write, but you just finished a 1500 page novel in record time. rebuilding an engine is no easy deal.

 

[aldive]

Your opinion on synthetic is fine, everyone is entitled to one.

And, I was revuilding motors before you were even born. Am I an expert, certainally not, might have neem back in my twentys. I do it for fun now. Further a motor on a stand has nothing to do with tranny cooler bolts.

But thank you for your comments.

 

[tbomb]

Originally posted by aldive
Your opinion on synthetic is fine, everyone is entitled to one.

And, I was revuilding motors before you were even born. Am I an expert, certainally not, might have neem back in my twentys. I do it for fun now. Further a motor on a stand has nothing to do with tranny cooler bolts.

But thank you for your comments.

youre welcome (for my comments), but obviously you totally missed my point.

the fact that you claim to have rebuilt a motor before i was born is irrelevant.

should i even bother trying to explain my point further?...nah, youll just get defensive anyways; im sure everyone else sees the correlation i was making.

 

[01EB5.0]

Well, I see your point about the oils, but I have to disagree with you two......synthetic will improve fuel milage and performance to an extent. people in calif. or florida won;t see it...it's the people up in the very cold climates that experiance the most benefit. try starting a truck filled with standard oil and try starting an identicle truck with synthetic in -20* weather. the one wiht synthetic will start easier, will have oil to all it's vital parts faster, and get better fuel milage. Same with transmission oil. I have full synthetic in there. last winter it would shift rough until it warmed up. this winter it shifts as notmal no matter how cold it is. Plus synthetic protects better because it can withstand hotter temperatures and not break down from wear as fast. my Synthetic 5W30 Amsoil has been in my crankcase since 102,000 miles. I now have 114,000. i changed the filter over Xmas break and won;t have to change the oil out until 25,000 miles or next august, whichever comes first. I'd like to see someone run standard oil for 25,000 miles. Also why else do all you guys pay all that extra for synthetic if it doesn;t do anything???? that doesn;t make sense to me. Many new cars come from the factory with synthetic now..that must say something about the positive side of synthetics....I mean what manufacture would wants to pay all that extra for oil if they didn;t think it helped? I dunno...I hate to be the one to disagree because I know this board is ment to be helpful and friendly and all and I'm going to get my head cut off for this...but it's just my .02.

Also on a lighter note I would never run anything in my engine besides engine oil, likewise I'd never run anything in my tranny besides tranny oil....you get where I'm goin here???
I'll step down now...good day all!

 

[nosaj122081]

I agree w/ you 95, like I said in my first post the one signifigant difference was at the temperature extremes. Again, like I said between that (trust me, in WV we have the worst of all the climates) and change intervals is why I use it (in the Explorer, that is). But I'll never agree with noticable performance or fuel effiecency gains, b/c they don't exist. It will start easier at the extremes, but I have a mechanical oil pressure gauge in my Mustang and synthetic doesn't get to the top end (I have my sender behind the lifter valley in the block) any faster than dino oil, the cam stays equally oil free for the same amount of time w/ both . I've heard many reasons for why some engines come from the factory w/ synthetic, but I don't really know a good answer... I've heard that the tolerances are tighter in some of these motors and that the smaller synthetic molecule is a necessity. Just because the manufacturer puts it there doesn't make it right, *cough* Firestone *caugh*. But like I said I know nothing concrete. Again, I agree w/ the synth. tranny oil too, I used it in my Talons w/ great results, it did smooth out the shifting a great deal.

See, I won't get pissy as long as we are staying civil!

 

[01EB5.0]

Ok, i just know some people get mad at disagreements and I just don;t want to look like an @$$. As for the oil getting up faster they say (yeah yeah I know i shouldn't believe what "they" say, but oh well) they say it comes up faster. The oil gauge in my Explorer is actually a real functioning gauge, but i can;t compare the performance to regular oil because since i've owned it it's had synthetic....

 

[Speedfreak]

I have 2 cents to add to this topic.

Synthetic oils are great, but are just as well served in Florida or California as they are in the frozen North. Synthetics make for a better oil because they have a uniform molecule structure and are more stable at extreme temperatures. Thats it. I have seen info on power increases but have never seen it in any of my own vehicles. I need more proof. Synthetics are used from the factory because the engineers found that extended or safe service life wasn't possible with regular oil. Engines of today are seeing more extreme running temperature than engines of the sixties.

As for oil change intervals and additives, the best way to guage this is what is left of the additives in the oil. The only reason oil is changed is because the additives in the oil have broken down or have been used up. The best way to know if you need an oil change is have an oil analisis preformed, this practise is common place in the Diesel industry and can tell alot about the running condition of your engine.

ATF doesn't have the additives to clean an engine the same as engine oil. ATF is more like hydraulic oil in proprerty and doesn't require that type of additive. If the ATF did function in that manner way, why are the oil companies not telling us to put in our engine for cleaner crankcases?

As for leaks with ATF that can be attributed to the fact that engine oils have a tendency to swell seals for better sealing. ATF is designed to be compatibly with seals so there is no swelling. Also the viscosity of tranny fluid is about the same as a 10 weight oil.

Diesel fuel should not be put into a crank case. It doesnt have the viscosity to provide neccesary lubrication for the engine. That is a great way to score the hell out of your bearings and major friction points of your engine.

Alittle side note: synthetic oil will not swell the seals either and an additive has to be added to it as well, so that it will not cause leaks.

 

[01EB5.0]

Additive for synthetic not to cause leaks? Does that mean that I am luckey mine hasn;t started leaking or is that just for older engines that need that?

 

[Speedfreak]

Synthetics have to have a seal swelling additive added to them while refining. If they are used straight they will not swell the seals in the engine, expanding the seals and preventing leaks from occuring. All sythetic oils have the additive.