Possibly getting another Merc and have questions.

[Von Kaiser]

Hello all. Last year I traded in my '03 Merc Mountaineer (big mistake ) for a brand new '13 Ford Focus even though I wanted a Mustang GT. Needed a brand new "family" car with factory warranty. I hate this Focus, hate it with a passion as a matter of fact, so I'm going to eat the $$$ on depreciation get rid of it. Anyway on to why I'm posting. I want another Mountaineer (or Aviator?) since I still cannot get a Mustang GT since it isn't a "family car". :thumbdwn:

My previous '03 Mountaineer was a Luxury trim model with the Class III/IV towing package and had all of the options ticked except AWD from factory. It had 118,000 or so miles upon trade in. I loved it, had almost everything I wanted minus AWD and better brakes. This time I'll be looking for either an '06-08 V8 AWD or a '02-'05 Lincoln Aviator. These will be in my price range with the mileage I will be looking for (less than 85,000).

Beyond the usual belts, hoses, leaks, and noises / etc what specific should I be looking for on either of these trucks? I vaguely remember the 5R55 having some issues with reliability (correct?) and I wanted to ask if the new 6R six speed auto in the newer '06+ Mountaineers was a better strong unit? I also remember the brakes are kind of weak, and the discs can be warped or over "resurfaced" with too much disc material taken off with a cheap owning not just replacing them. Mine had that issue.

Also, is the 4V 4.6L a more reliable option in the Aviator vs the 3V 4.6L in the '06+ Mountaineer? Intake manifold cracking issue was already resolved by '02 correct? Or would a '02 Aviator have issues?

I'll be looking to also lightly modify which ever one I decide on with a CAI or K&N intake, exhaust (Gibson 3"), and a ECU tune. Of these mods what sorts of 0-60 / 1/4mi times will the 3V and 4V AWD put down? I've read 0-60 in the Aviator runs 6.9-7.2 and the '06+ V8 AWD Merc running 7.3-7.6, is this realistic numbers stock?

For the towing package / gearing how can I tell if the truck has had the gearing upgraded from 3.55 to 3.73? Does the Class III/IV towing package automatically include this gearing upgrade? Also does that towing package including any fluid coolers?

Lastly, what is a good safe mileage amount I should look out for. I know the modular V8 generally is pretty bulletproof and probably the most reliable engine platform, but, of course lack of maintenance does impact this. Right now I'm comfortable with mileage not exceeding 85,000, but would be open to more mileage if the experts here give me more confidence with buying one with more mileage.

I greatly appreciate any assistance!

 

[zpn_by]

Hello all. Last year I traded in my '03 Merc Mountaineer (big mistake ) for a brand new '13 Ford Focus even though I wanted a Mustang GT. Needed a brand new "family" car with factory warranty. I hate this Focus, hate it with a passion as a matter of fact, so I'm going to eat the $$$ on depreciation get rid of it. Anyway on to why I'm posting. I want another Mountaineer (or Aviator?) since I still cannot get a Mustang GT since it isn't a "family car". :thumbdwn:

My previous '03 Mountaineer was a Luxury trim model with the Class III/IV towing package and had all of the options ticked except AWD from factory. It had 118,000 or so miles upon trade in. I loved it, had almost everything I wanted minus AWD and better brakes. This time I'll be looking for either an '06-08 V8 AWD or a '02-'05 Lincoln Aviator. These will be in my price range with the mileage I will be looking for (less than 85,000).

Beyond the usual belts, hoses, leaks, and noises / etc what specific should I be looking for on either of these trucks? I vaguely remember the 5R55 having some issues with reliability (correct?) and I wanted to ask if the new 6R six speed auto in the newer '06+ Mountaineers was a better strong unit? I also remember the brakes are kind of weak, and the discs can be warped or over "resurfaced" with too much disc material taken off with a cheap owning not just replacing them. Mine had that issue. Beware of the 5-speed auto. All I can say. You don't know how it was maintained, if at all. If you are looking at a 5-speed auto, take it for a good long test drive, to really get the fluid warm. Of course there is no dipstick so we can't check the fluid itself. Try to drive it, then stop, shift to neutral, then back to drive, and see if it shifts any different (mine is harsher on the 2-3 upshift if I do this, but I'm too cheap to take it in. If I don't sit with it in neutral it won't act up.

Also, is the 4V 4.6L a more reliable option in the Aviator vs the 3V 4.6L in the '06+ Mountaineer? Intake manifold cracking issue was already resolved by '02 correct? Or would a '02 Aviator have issues? The '02 SOHC was IIRC included in the cracking TSB, but most if not all have been switched to the aluminum coolant tube by now I would think. The DOHC wasn't subject to this problem as far as I know but I could be wrong.

I'll be looking to also lightly modify which ever one I decide on with a CAI or K&N intake, exhaust (Gibson 3"), and a ECU tune. Of these mods what sorts of 0-60 / 1/4mi times will the 3V and 4V AWD put down? I've read 0-60 in the Aviator runs 6.9-7.2 and the '06+ V8 AWD Merc running 7.3-7.6, is this realistic numbers stock?

For the towing package / gearing how can I tell if the truck has had the gearing upgraded from 3.55 to 3.73? Does the Class III/IV towing package automatically include this gearing upgrade? Also does that towing package including any fluid coolers? To my knowledge with Canadian packages (have to assume US is similar) the trucks came with tranny coolers, but towing package trucks may have a larger one. If it has the Class III/IV hitch, it will already have the 3.73 gears - I was reading the '02 truck brochure the other day. Please double-check about the cooler - if the Class II trucks have one, and your hitch ball is mounted on a Class III, it's a matter of changing the rear bumper (and maybe wiring harness at the rear) to get the Class III receiver, but this will NOT give full Class III/IV capability. I'll be doing this with my truch eventually - but I will still have the open differential 3.55 gearset, and that's not changing, plus I know about the limitations.

Lastly, what is a good safe mileage amount I should look out for. I know the modular V8 generally is pretty bulletproof and probably the most reliable engine platform, but, of course lack of maintenance does impact this. Right now I'm comfortable with mileage not exceeding 85,000, but would be open to more mileage if the experts here give me more confidence with buying one with more mileage. If you're planning to keep it for a long time, (sounds like) obviously get as little miles as possible. Mine just turned 100,000 miles and is going strong, and we see many people with their 4.6 2V at much more than that, so you're right, it appears to be solid as a rock. Just watch out for noise from the chain guides at the front of the engine, as I understand this applies to ALL mod V8's as the plastic guides were basically unchanged for about 15 years.

I greatly appreciate any assistance!

Hope this helps (and that I gave correct info!) Good luck and let us know what you get! (with pics please!)

 

[Von Kaiser]

Thank you for the reply. I'll reply to your quotes.

I wasn't aware there wasn't a dipstick to check the transmission fluid, in the year or so I had my '03 Mounty 5R55 I didn't have any issues so I didn't bother looking. Plus the dealer I bought it from I used to work for and I still have a great relationship with them so they went over everything and replaced what needed to be replaced. One of the first things I will do to the truck once I buy it is have my dealer flush/replace all applicable fluids and run a check on it to make sure I don't need to replace anything else.

For the towing package subject, am I to understand that any 5spd 5R55 V8 that has the Class III towing package automatically has the 3.73's and fluid cooler? I just read a thread where the 6spd V8 AWD models do not have 3.73's but keep the 3.55's because of a shorter 1st gear making 3.73's not necessary. Is this correct? Does this also mean the 6R 6spd auto is not a good candidate for upgrading to 3.73 or 4.10? I'm ok with not increasing to 3.73 or 4.10 if it is not needed or will damage the 6R 6spd. But what I'm after is the fastest accelerating truck (Mounty or Aviator) after I do my planned mods. Since I cannot get a Mustang GT I'd like my Mounty/Aviator to be quick to quench my V8 torque thirst.

This time I will keep this truck until the wheels fall off. I had my Camaro for 14 years before I "sold" it to my best bud for cheap. I'll definitely post pics as soon as I'm ready to pull the trigger on one. I need to pay down the Focus for a few more months and I have to find the right Mounty/Aviator in the right color with a V8+AWD and the other options.

You mentioned the timing chain guide noise, so other than noise how else can I diagnose faulty chain guides? Is it prudent to go ahead and have those chain guides replaced? Do they have materials other than plastic for them now?

 

[Von Kaiser]

I also have another question I hope you guys can answer. I see that the 6R60 and 6R80 were both offered depending on year with the 4.6 3V (06-08 vs 09-10 ?) for the Mountaineer. My question is if the 6R60 is rated at 300ft.lbs. of torque (2:1 w/torque converter ?) and the engine output is at 300 stock wouldn't that be pushing it for reliability? The second you add any power wouldn't that push the transmission beyond the "safety zone"? Having said all of that and if it is correct would it be worth it to me to increase my budget by a couple grand and get a Mounty with a 6R80 with a higher torque rating? I really need the most reliable V8 AWD setup for the Mounty / Aviator.

While typing that I also realize that the Aviator with its 5R55 is rated less than its stock output as well--if my math is correct. If assuming the 2:1 = 275ft.lbs...

 

[MNgopher]

If you get the 4.0, you get the 5-speed. Sounds like you already had one and know how those can be. The V8's get the 6 speed 6R60 (and later the 6R80) transmission. This is what is used in the F150, etc... now. The Explorer/Mountaineer was the first application of this for Ford. Common issues include poor downshifting or a clunk sensation on deceleration at the 2-1 shift, and a 1-2 shift flare or delay. Do a search here on these issues for confirmation. I test drove 4 Explorers/Mounatineers before I bought mine, and 2 of them had the downshift issue.

No idea on any comparisons to the aviator. The 4.6 3V has two common issues - issues with changing the spark plugs (they can break) and exhaust manifold leaks. I have one leaking exhaust manifold that is evident when cold. Essentially it sounds like an old work truck until the engine warms up slightly.

Can't speak to mods. I didn't buy mine for speed. I will say despite the nice looking power numbers on the 4.6 3V, i don't find mine to feel terribly fast. If you want it to feel like a mustang, you'll be dissapointed.

The 4.6 V8 tow package still has 3.55 gearing. Check out the gear ratios on the 6R60 - first gear is way deeper than the 5 speed making the lower gearing unnecessary. Look for the 2" receiver hitch and 7 pin wiring connector to confirm it was equipped with the tow package. Adding a heavier hitch if you desire to tow isn't easy since the hitch is now integrated into the frame.

In terms of 6R60 reliability versus 6r80, not a lot of reports of failures out there on either.

 

[thebrakeman]

3rd gen V8 trucks were 2-valve (~250hp). 4th gen V8 trucks were 3-valve (292hp).
I was not aware that the short-lived Aviator (3rd gen) got a 4-valve engine. I thought it was simply an early 3-valve, tuned to ~300hp.

That said, it only had the 5-speed, and had none of the 4th gen frame improvements. I would consider a 4th gen (late-'08 -'10) as superior to the Aviator in just about every way, even if it was short 12hp.

Yes, the 4th gen V8 gets 3.55 gearing, with or without the HD towing package. The final drive ratio of 1st gear (6sp) thru 3.55 axle is better for takeoff and towing, compared to 1st gear (5sp) thru 3.73 axle. And you then get the benefit of a better top gear (doublel-OD) for gas mileage when cruising. You don't have the 3.73 gearing hurting fuel economy because of the extra cog. But then, it does not sound like gas mileage is a concern to you. I have not heard of anyone putting 3.73 gears in a 4th gen V8 truck, much less 4.10.

Downshift-clunk is handled with a computer re-flash.

Get an '08½ or later to avoid spark plug breakage as well as other issues. If not familiar wiht the spark plug removal issue, a simply search around here will get you plenty of info.

But really, skip the Aviator. It's not 2 generations past. If you want the luxury look of that Lincoln, do what I did, and get the Mercury Mountaineer. In AWD form, it has the benefit of lighter weight, because it has no low range transfer case (vs. the Explorer).
I do not know if the 6r80 is a stronger unit than the 6r60. Maybe it is. It might be the same unit they put in the F150. If it's the same one paired with the Ecoboost torque-monster, then that's your baby.

 

[thebrakeman]

PS - My '06 Mounty (purchased used in 2009) is just past 100,000 miles. This will be our 5th season towing our 5000+lb camper with it. Previous owner used it to tow their horse-trailer. Knocking on wood....but no drivetrain issues so far.

 

[willied]

I believe I read the 6R60 was rated to 350 ft-lb of torque and the 6R80 is good to 400 ft-lb, but I don't know where I read that. Whatever the case, I don't think adding an exhaust, CAI, and a tune is going to be too much for the 6R60/80. I haven't heard of many of the 6-speeds having to be replaced so I'd say they are pretty reliable. Mine has rough shifting down low, but it's been that way since I got it (didn't realize it at the time), and I haven't found a solution to it. So just make sure whatever one you get doesn't have that problem.

 

[Von Kaiser]

Thank you everyone for the replies.

If you get the 4.0, you get the 5-speed. Sounds like you already had one and know how those can be. The V8's get the 6 speed 6R60 (and later the 6R80) transmission. This is what is used in the F150, etc... now. The Explorer/Mountaineer was the first application of this for Ford. Common issues include poor downshifting or a clunk sensation on deceleration at the 2-1 shift, and a 1-2 shift flare or delay. Do a search here on these issues for confirmation. I test drove 4 Explorers/Mounatineers before I bought mine, and 2 of them had the downshift issue.

Good info to know about the shifting. Thanks!

No idea on any comparisons to the aviator. The 4.6 3V has two common issues - issues with changing the spark plugs (they can break) and exhaust manifold leaks. I have one leaking exhaust manifold that is evident when cold. Essentially it sounds like an old work truck until the engine warms up slightly.

I've heard some of the neighborhood modular equipped trucks make that noise. Interesting to know that may be the cause.

Can't speak to mods. I didn't buy mine for speed. I will say despite the nice looking power numbers on the 4.6 3V, i don't find mine to feel terribly fast. If you want it to feel like a mustang, you'll be dissapointed.

I won't be disappointed. I understand it isn't a Mustang GT, the wife doesn't want me to get a coupe so my choices are limited. My '03 Mounty with the 3.73's was dynamite off the line up until about 45mph. So I know what to expect from one--I rather loved the way it felt straight off the line. Plus with the Gibson exhaust, intake, and ecu tuning I should get a decent amount of acceleration to quench my thirst. Now, the 06+ with the 3V + AWD in the Mounty and the 4V + AWD in the Aviator are both a decent amount faster than my '03 2V 2WD. So, bonus for me.

The 4.6 V8 tow package still has 3.55 gearing. Check out the gear ratios on the 6R60 - first gear is way deeper than the 5 speed making the lower gearing unnecessary. Look for the 2" receiver hitch and 7 pin wiring connector to confirm it was equipped with the tow package. Adding a heavier hitch if you desire to tow isn't easy since the hitch is now integrated into the frame.

In terms of 6R60 reliability versus 6r80, not a lot of reports of failures out there on either.

I'm not going to tow so really the only use for the tow hitch is for me to know what towing package was on the truck. Do you have a link of the ratios on both the 6R and 5R55 so I can see visually what you are referring to? Would you say the 6R60/6R80 would benefit from 3.73 or 4.10 in terms of 0-60 & 1/4mi times?

For the 6R60 the main thing I'm worried is doing the mods and putting it over the torque rating.

3rd gen V8 trucks were 2-valve (~250hp). 4th gen V8 trucks were 3-valve (292hp).
I was not aware that the short-lived Aviator (3rd gen) got a 4-valve engine. I thought it was simply an early 3-valve, tuned to ~300hp.

That said, it only had the 5-speed, and had none of the 4th gen frame improvements. I would consider a 4th gen (late-'08 -'10) as superior to the Aviator in just about every way, even if it was short 12hp.

I'd definitely be interested in learning what improvements were made on the 4th gen vs 3rd gen minus the deck lid cracking issue. LOL

Yes, the 4th gen V8 gets 3.55 gearing, with or without the HD towing package. The final drive ratio of 1st gear (6sp) thru 3.55 axle is better for takeoff and towing, compared to 1st gear (5sp) thru 3.73 axle. And you then get the benefit of a better top gear (doublel-OD) for gas mileage when cruising. You don't have the 3.73 gearing hurting fuel economy because of the extra cog. But then, it does not sound like gas mileage is a concern to you. I have not heard of anyone putting 3.73 gears in a 4th gen V8 truck, much less 4.10.

Downshift-clunk is handled with a computer re-flash.

Get an '08½ or later to avoid spark plug breakage as well as other issues. If not familiar wiht the spark plug removal issue, a simply search around here will get you plenty of info.

Thanks for the confirmation. And I read last night about the spark plug thing, definitely a thing to look out for if I get an earlier Mounty.

But really, skip the Aviator. It's not 2 generations past. If you want the luxury look of that Lincoln, do what I did, and get the Mercury Mountaineer. In AWD form, it has the benefit of lighter weight, because it has no low range transfer case (vs. the Explorer).

I would be with you there on getting the Mounty over the Explorer, I prefer the Mounty's cosmetics over any of the other versions of that platform. I like the way the Aviator's interior looks but the Mounty looks better outside.
What does that low range xfer case weigh? Also, do you know what the Class III/IV hitch setup weighs?

I do not know if the 6r80 is a stronger unit than the 6r60. Maybe it is. It might be the same unit they put in the F150. If it's the same one paired with the Ecoboost torque-monster, then that's your baby.

I'll have to look that up...

PS - My '06 Mounty (purchased used in 2009) is just past 100,000 miles. This will be our 5th season towing our 5000+lb camper with it. Previous owner used it to tow their horse-trailer. Knocking on wood....but no drivetrain issues so far.

Wow, that's impressive.

I believe I read the 6R60 was rated to 350 ft-lb of torque and the 6R80 is good to 400 ft-lb, but I don't know where I read that. Whatever the case, I don't think adding an exhaust, CAI, and a tune is going to be too much for the 6R60/80. I haven't heard of many of the 6-speeds having to be replaced so I'd say they are pretty reliable. Mine has rough shifting down low, but it's been that way since I got it (didn't realize it at the time), and I haven't found a solution to it. So just make sure whatever one you get doesn't have that problem.

I think it was a topic on this forum that told me the numbers I posted. I can try to find it if need-be. I hope those mods won't tear up a 6R60.

 

[thebrakeman]

No, I do not know what the weights of the transfer case nor hitch are. But you're not gonna remove the hitch on a 4th gen, since it's a welded, integral part of the frame.

 

[Von Kaiser]

Ah, well that is good information to know. I imagined them weighing a ton but if they are part of the frame then that's where they will stay.

I'm impressed at how much information I've got in the topic I posted. I greatly appreciate it guys.

Other than the gearing inquiry in my last post the only other question I'd have to get answer(s) for is how much of a power increase you guys think I'd get with the Gibson 3" exhaust, an ECU tune, and a K&N CAI? Also, if these were done on a 2V vs 3V what would that power increase approximately be?

 

[MNgopher]

The 5R55S gear ratios are:

First: 3.22
Second: 2.29
Third: 1.55
Fourth: 1.00
Fifth: 0.71

The 6R60/80 ratios are:

First: 4.17
Second: 2.34
Third: 1.52
Fourth: 1.14
Fifth: 0.86
Sixth: 0.69

 

[Explorer_PL]

Somehow I am not a strong believer in the intake and exhaust upgrades. Yes, you will get few hp, the motor will breath easier,but you will not notice the extra power. Maybe they advertise let's say 15 hp, but you get them at 5000 rpm which you never drive at. Save the money for the maintenance and repairs

 

[Von Kaiser]

The 5R55S gear ratios are:

First: 3.22
Second: 2.29
Third: 1.55
Fourth: 1.00
Fifth: 0.71

The 6R60/80 ratios are:

First: 4.17
Second: 2.34
Third: 1.52
Fourth: 1.14
Fifth: 0.86
Sixth: 0.69

Thank you for those. I see the difference already for that 1st gear. So being greedy does this mean upgrading the 6R gears would make it scoot a bit faster? lol...

Somehow I am not a strong believer in the intake and exhaust upgrades. Yes, you will get few hp, the motor will breath easier,but you will not notice the extra power. Maybe they advertise let's say 15 hp, but you get them at 5000 rpm which you never drive at. Save the money for the maintenance and repairs

It really isn't power numbers as it is faster acceleration that I desire. I'm ok with little power increase (if any) as long as the on-road acceleration is improved. This vehicle will be my toy as well as the family/shopping hauler so whatever can be done to move it off the line faster the better. I cannot imagine doing intake, exhaust, Pulley Kit (?), and a tune not improving at least a little bit on acceleration. Surely someone on this forum has modified a 2V or 3V 4.6 in their Explorer/Mounty with these mods that can post about their results?

 

[hwystr]

unless your going to supercharge it, the power changes are small and only higher rpm. not worth it imo.

 

[willied]

Thank you for those. I see the difference already for that 1st gear. So being greedy does this mean upgrading the 6R gears would make it scoot a bit faster? lol...

I think the first gear already feels too low. You really have to keep a soft foot on the pedal to keep it from going above 2k RPM before the first gear change.

 

[Von Kaiser]

unless your going to supercharge it, the power changes are small and only higher rpm. not worth it imo.

Higher RPM power increase also means a passing and 1/4 mi times though doesn't it?

Funny you say supercharger. I found Brenspeed's website and love the idea of supercharging the Mounty. Especially since the supercharger isn't a centrifugal but is a roots/screw type. My favorite noise from a vehicle is a Terminator with the supercharger whine. If I get a Mounty with the 6R80 and the truck is paid off and it isn't a mechanical money pit it will get a supercharger.

I think the first gear already feels too low. You really have to keep a soft foot on the pedal to keep it from going above 2k RPM before the first gear change.

I have a heavy foot and fuel economy doesn't really bother me. Hell, my '13 Focus is sitting at 23mpg with months of premium petrol usage, but, that's mostly to having to rev the nuts off of it to get anything out of this I4 engine with no torque. I cannot wait go get a V8 again.

 

[willied]

You should've gotten a Focus ST.

But really, I think if you get an Explorer that you should at least get the Gibson exhaust. I want to get one, I just need some money first. You can get them online for as cheap as $250. And a tune should definitely make it feel more responsive at the least.

 

[Von Kaiser]

You should've gotten a Focus ST.

But really, I think if you get an Explorer that you should at least get the Gibson exhaust. I want to get one, I just need some money first. You can get them online for as cheap as $250. And a tune should definitely make it feel more responsive at the least.

Couldn't afford the monthly payment of an ST. And, I needed the wife to be able to drive the second family car--and she doesn't know how to drive a manual in traffic. She prefers an auto.

 

[willied]

Couldn't afford the monthly payment of an ST. And, I needed the wife to be able to drive the second family car--and she doesn't know how to drive a manual in traffic. She prefers an auto.

Darn. It's kind of sad how many people don't know/don't want to drive a manual. I personally love it.