RANT: Dealer trying to screw me on pinion seal replacement...

[fgump]

Please see the email I sent below:
Good morning, Mr. X. Let me apologize in advance for the length of this email, but there are a lot of items that I wanted to cover and have written down. Please read on.

My name is Bill, and I have a 2000 Ford Explorer that I brought to your service center last Thursday for several items to be addressed. I had an ESPP warranty that expired on 9/25/05 or 100,000 miles, which I paid $1500 for shortly after I purchased the vehicle in 2000. I had not had a claim on that warranty until last week. I have used your service center for two major services for my Explorer, and have bought parts from your parts counter in the past. Until now, I have had no issue with dealership Ford.

I brought my vehicle to the service center last Thursday, and spoke with the advisor around 6pm. I detailed my concerns (loud rattling sound from timing chain area at startup, and leak from rear axle pinion area). I told him I wanted to have these items addressed before my warranty ran out. He said "No problem, powertrain concerns will be covered under your warranty, you're good to go." So I left the vehicle there, and told him to call me with an estimated completion time and let me know if anything was not going to be covered under warranty by calling my cell phone (I was going to be out of town on Friday, and wanted to speak with him before authorizing any non-warranty work). He said he'd let me know something by noon Friday.

By 3pm Friday, I had not heard anything back from the advisor, so I called him. He said "We didn't hear the sound you were talking about, and we didn't find anything wrong with the timing chain tensioner; put a pressure gauge on it and it's all within spec. Now if you want to do any further work, we'll have to pull the engine out." PULL THE ENGINE? When the timing chain tensioner recall was performed on the vehicle several years ago, I don't recall the engine being pulled! So, in effect, he's dismissing the timing chain work under warranty. Strike one.

The advisor then went on to say "Well, we did find some debris in your catalytic converter heat shield, and that was causing some noise." So he says "The charge to remove the debris isn't much, only about $25." Yep, just $25. So, my complaint of timing chain rattle isn't worth any more effort than dismissing it and telling me my noise is from debris in a heat shield. I believe I know the difference. Strike two.


Here's the real reason I'm writing. Yesterday, I went to pick the vehicle up. I noticed the charge to remove the debris was $35, not the $25 Bryan told me. I reminded the service desk attendant of that, and he did change that charge to $25. I went out to my vehicle, started it up, and heard the same LOUD RATTLE from the timing chain at startup. I was disgusted, but had to get back to work for a 1pm meeting.

Later in the afternoon, I reviewed the description of work, and I quote:

CHECK CONCERN REAR AXLE SEALS SEEM TO LEAK. CK FOR ANY GARBBBING (sic) AROUND TURNS
BEARING NOISE
ACCESS REAR AXLE REPLACED LEAKING PINION SEALS TOP OFF

PARTS USED
1 F89Z-4676-AA SEAL AS 366364
1 ZY-75W140-QL OIL-R 509956

Attached is the service invoice:

As a reminder, this is a 2000 Explorer XLT SOHC, with a conventional rear end, NOT Traction-Lok. The specified rear end oil for the non-Traction-LOK rear end is SAE 80W-90, part number XY-80W90-QL.

I have a friend who is an independent mechanic, and has access to the Ford Factory Service Manuals. I asked to review the sections on rear end work, and this is what I found:

The service procedure for replacing the pinion seal is pretty simple (attached):

However, it does require the pinion flange to come off, which isn't so easy (attached):

I see no evidence that the rear wheels were removed, which means the calipers can't be removed for the pinion preload setting (no dirt disturbed on the hubcap, no fingerprints or glovemarks anywhere). I also do not see scribed lines indicating the mating flanges on the pinion flange were aligned. Also, there is no mention of a new pinion flange nut on the parts list, which is included in note 5 in the pinion flange repair procedure..

In short, it looks to me like
the driveshaft was removed,
the old pinion nut removed,
the pinion flange removed,
the oil seal removed and replaced,
the pinion flange reinstalled,
the old pinion nut reinstalled,
the driveshaft reattached,
and the rear end topped off with the WRONG gear oil.
It also appears that the pinion bearing preload was not set, so I may experience premature rear end wear.

Strike three.

Here's what I'd like to do:
1. Discuss this matter with you in person.
2. Determine the best course of action to resolve my timing chain rattle under warranty.
3. Determine the best course of action to either replace my rear end or repair the damaged/improperly installed components.
4. Extend the ESPP warranty that I paid $1500 for to 12/31/2007 or 120,000 miles.

I can be reached by phone today after 9:30 am for the rest of the day. I will be happy to come by, but I am not sure that I should drive the vehicle with the rear end in the condition it is in. I did drive it 6 miles yesterday from your dealership to my work location, where it is still sitting. I am in need of a truck or SUV this weekend to perform some yardwork, so, if this repair work can not be completed by then, I will need a loaner Explorer or F150 pickup to pick up and return an aerator.

I look forward to your call.

 

[aldive]

Another sad example of dealership "service".

Goof luck in resolving this ....

 

[rizzjc]

I'd be very interested in the response to the rear seal replacement. There is a lot of talk here about how to do that, and a lot of people just *carefully* replace it, trying not to disturb anything and try to put the nut back where it was. Ford charges something like $170 to do the seal. There is not way that they could follow the stated procedure and get it done for $170, so obviously they are not following the procedure, so I'd like to hear what the official word is on it because I haven't been able to get much out of Ford on it. However, if it makes you feel better, I did about EVERYTHING that the procedure says NOT to do, and so far I am still rolling.

 

[hostile413]

not to dismiss your concerns, but this is why i buy used explorers, by the time i get em, most of the bugs are worked out, i had a 2000 ranger, i bought it in 2001, so it was a year old when i noticed the tranny slippin, took it to the dealer, they had it for two days when they said come get it, when i got there they said that the slipping was normal, i about lauughed my ass off right to his face, after alot of headaches they finally replaced the tranny in it.....so hopefully you will get everything resolved with out too many complications..good luck

 

[fgump]

Bought mine used as well in 2000...

not to dismiss your concerns, but this is why i buy used explorers, by the time i get em, most of the bugs are worked out, i had a 2000 ranger, i bought it in 2001, so it was a year old when i noticed the tranny slippin, took it to the dealer, they had it for two days when they said come get it, when i got there they said that the slipping was normal, i about lauughed my ass off right to his face, after alot of headaches they finally replaced the tranny in it.....so hopefully you will get everything resolved with out too many complications..good luck

and it's been trouble-free for 55000 miles. This is about dealer dishonesty, pure and simple. I paid $1500 for the warranty, and they are trying to get out of the deal for chump change. I'll not stand for it.

 

[hostile413]

i dont blame you, i was in the same position, i found that if i stood at the customer service desk and got loud, but not rude, it got me alot farther, guess they didnt want other customers hearing how they screw their customers

 

[fgump]

So, of course, they're denying everything at the dealer...

a couple of conversation snippets with the customer relations manager at the dealership this morning, after playing phone tag with him all day yesterday (service manager is conveniently "absent")

"I can't believe the service writer told you $25 to diagnose the debris in the heat shield; our fee is $35, but I'm glad they got it adjusted for you, saved you some money." :fire:
"we NEVER set the preload when putting in a pinion seal; our mechanic's been here 15 years and he's never done that"...
"We checked with Ford Engineering, and they told us in 2002, the rear end lube was changed to 75W140 across the board, so you're getting an UPGRADE! You know, it's like regular motor oil and Mobil1; the Mobil1's just better. We'll be happy to drain it and reinstall the 75W90 for you" (gee, thanks)...
"the timing chain tensioner cartridge on your vehicle was replaced under recall, so it's brand new!"(replaced under recall at 34,000 miles; I'm now at 82k)...
"the axle halfshafts have to come out to set the preload"...
"if we have to go in to the lower tensioners, and your ESPP doesn't cover it, you pay for engine removal and installation"...
"your ESPP may cover the pinion seal, but it doesn't cover any other labor or parts" (so, they're ignoring their own Factory Service Procedures that specifically say, on item 5, "CAUTION: After removing the pinion nut, discard it. Use a new nut for installation."...
"ESPP has it's own procedures and pay schedule, and they would only pay to remove and replace the seal, nothing more"...

I checked my ESPP before taking in the vehicle, and it says, very specifically:
What Is Covered

• Rear-Wheel Drive - Drive axle housing and all internal parts, universal and constant velocity joints, rear-wheel bearings and retainers, axle shafts, seals, and gaskets, drive shaft, front-wheel bearings.

Nowhere does it say it won't cover doing something the right (and SAFE way).
So, my call with the customer relations manager was fruitless. My next call was to Ford Customer Care, where I documented my points, and the responses given by the local dealer. After outlining my requests, I was put on hold for a few moments for them to "research" some. The rep came back on, and indicated that more research was going to be necessary. He said he'd call me at 1:30 today. I'll be standing by.

 

[hostile413]

keep us updated

 

[rizzjc]

I have never heard of any shop actually following that repair procedure on the axle seal. If they did, it would be more like a $600-$700 job, which is ridiculous. The nut isn't a major issue. It has a sealant on the end of it, which is probably why they say to replace it. Some use RTV, I just tightened the old one back down and it hasn't leaked. I don't know what the right answer is here, but the factory procedure also says that you have to pull the engine to replace the oil pan gasket, yet Ford quoted my $485 to replace that. Obviously that does not include pulling the engine. I think the reality of these things is that much of what the engineers write up is completely unrealistic for some basic repairs, so they have to figure out other ways, and they don't document it (for the general public anyway). Like I said, I beat the daylights out of the flange to get it off, and back on, TWICE cause it leaked after the first time, so I replaced the flange. Even after all that I've got 5k-10k on the rear, and it's still OK. We'll see how many miles I get out of it. I do plan to be more careful when I do the front however, now that I know better, but I still plan to do it myself, knowing that even Ford does not follow the factory procedure.

Good luck with yours.

 

[fgump]

I paid $1500 for a warranty that never got used.

I have never heard of any shop actually following that repair procedure on the axle seal. If they did, it would be more like a $600-$700 job, which is ridiculous. The nut isn't a major issue. It has a sealant on the end of it, which is probably why they say to replace it. Some use RTV, I just tightened the old one back down and it hasn't leaked. I don't know what the right answer is here, but the factory procedure also says that you have to pull the engine to replace the oil pan gasket, yet Ford quoted my $485 to replace that. Obviously that does not include pulling the engine. I think the reality of these things is that much of what the engineers write up is completely unrealistic for some basic repairs, so they have to figure out other ways, and they don't document it (for the general public anyway). Like I said, I beat the daylights out of the flange to get it off, and back on, TWICE cause it leaked after the first time, so I replaced the flange. Even after all that I've got 5k-10k on the rear, and it's still OK. We'll see how many miles I get out of it. I do plan to be more careful when I do the front however, now that I know better, but I still plan to do it myself, knowing that even Ford does not follow the factory procedure.

Good luck with yours.

I don't care what "method" they've found that works, but preload is a real and important measurement for bearing life. Plain and simple, they don't care. If I had the tools to do it all myself, I would, but I don't. That's why I paid $1500 for the warranty, in case something like this did happen. Which it did. Which Ford should pony up for. All that's required is pulling the freakin' wheels and calipers off, and taking about 1 danged hour more of their time, at $80 an hour, to do it right. We're not talking rocket science. The procedure says replace the nut. Then replace the freakin' nut, for cripes sake! But set the danged preload like it says to do, which, if I had a lift and all the right friggin pullers, I'd have done it myself. But again, I preferred to pay for a warranty to have someone else do it for me. I'm so pissed on this whole matter.