Rear timing chain question with pic

[adambant]

Began my project of dealing with the good ol timing chain rattle on my 99 sohc. Pulled the right valve cover first to see if i need to pull the engine or not. As far as i can tell the rear guide and chain seem to be intact. Can anyone help me confirm this by this picture? I tried pulling and pushing on it and seems pretty solid. Thanks!

Adam

 

[2000StreetRod]

looks intact

The traction side looks intact in the photo. I suggest that you grab the top of the guide with thumb and finger and try to pull it upward. It should not move more than 1/16 inch. Then run your finger along the guide downward as far as possible while pushing sideways. If the base is broken the above should detect it.

The later version of the guide assembly has a metal reinforcement on the slack side. If you have the original guide assembly you probably don't have the upgrade. Try running your finger down the slack side doing the same thing as on the traction side. Unless you remove the hood the only way to see the slack side is with a mirror or camera.

 

[adambant]

Ok thanks streetrod. I will try that tomorrow when i get home from work. I would try it now, but im still trying to get warm again after being out there most of the day... it was a high of 24 today with 20 and 30 mph winds......my explorer unfortunatly is not in a garage.... im not going back out there tonite

 

[adambant]

good news

Well spent a few hours out in the cold tonite in the driveway with my work light and carhart gear. Everything in the rear seems to check out, not broken!
Pulled the left valve cover, and to my delight, that chain, tensionor and guides are all there and intact! So i pulled the radioator, alternator, P/S and A/C. Havent gotten the fan off the W/P yet. I gave up for the nite at that point. I know i dont HAVE to take it off, but i want so its just that much easier to get at the rest of the bolts on the timing cover etc. Im getting close. Probably wont get back at it until friday nite.

Thanks again for the advice.

Adam

 

[2000StreetRod]

Good news!

I'm glad that so far you've not found any broken guides. Be aware that the lower (out of sight) finger section of the driver side guide can break and not be detected from above. The most frequent failure seems to be the primary tensioner. Fortunately, damage to the engine rarely occurs from a failed primary tensioner. The primary tensioner and guide are easily replaced without loosening the jackshaft sprocket and no timing of the camshafts is required. Your engine internals look good with no sludge build up!

 

[adambant]

Yes, very happy about no sludge! Further shows this truck was well cared for before i bought it 3 weeks ago. Its a white 99 with 121k miles, picked it up for $4k, its incredibly clean, no wear on the leather, almost no rust underneath. When i bought it, i was sure the noise was just the belt tensioner as i could see it wobble all over while it was running. Well i was right, it definatly was making noise and is very weak...but it wasnt the only noise. Found this site and about the timing chain issue AFTER i bougt it. But all said and done i think it was still a fair deal overall as blue book put it around $6k. I really like the truck and just cant wait to get it on the road. Its "replacing" my 07 Mazda6. Financial reasons mainly, but my vehicle needs have changed as well. So if anyone is interested in my mazda let me know Anywho, won't get back out to the X till tomorrow nite. I'll post what i find when i get the timing cover off.

Adam.

 

[adambant]

DAMN! Balance shaft tensioner completly failed!

Ok. So todays my day off. Finally got back out to the truck. Finally got the damn crank pulley off after a little struggle and now the timing cover is off. The primary tensioner is ok, but i will still replace it because its the old, weaker 3 leaf spring one. However, the noise is from the completly failed Balance shaft tensioner.... I'm really disappointed to say the least. Im completly out of time for this project. I reeeeally want and kind of need to avoid dropping the upper pan. What exactly is the balance shaft for? I seem to remember from some other forums of people doing a "balance shaft delete". So if i just cut the chain and removed the chain, what consequences would there be? Would i have a god aweful vibration or noise...or nothing? would it affect the 4x4 as i remember that only the 4x4's come with a balance shaft correct? Please advise. Thanks so much!

Adam.

 

[2000StreetRod]

balance shaft controversy

There is considerable controversy regarding the need for the balance shaft. Some members have replaced their balance shaft engines with no-balance shaft engines and experienced no detectable harmful effects. I have not seen any Ford TSBs regarding failures of 2WD engine parts due to not having a balance shaft. In my opinion it is not necessary, especially if the vehicle is not used for extensive off road driving.

At least one member in the last year replaced his balance shaft tensioner without dropping the block cradle (upper oil pan). He just replaced the broken spring part instead of the entire assembly so he did not have to remove the mounting bolts.

 

[adambant]

I actually tried to swap in just the spring part on the balance shaft tensioner, but theres just not quite enough space to slide off the old piece and slide on the new one, i get most of the way sliding it off but then it hits the cradle and thats it. Unless i figure out how to do it that way, i will more than likely just remove the chain and start putting things back together. Only big problem i have at the moment NOW is that i dropped one of the bolts of the primary tensioner down in the pan...DOH! I spent over an hour "fishing" with my magnetic pick up tool but no luck. I'm praying that i will find it sitting in the lower pan when i remove that. Wish me luck. I wont get back to the truck till friday morning. Thanks for your input.

Adam.

 

[2000StreetRod]

balance shaft thread

The following thread describes two different approaches regarding the balance shaft chain tensioner - cut the chain vs replacing the spring: Replacing Timing Chain

 

[adambant]

Truck runs, but no better....

Im so frustrated and disappointed. Finally got everything back together and started the truck tonite around 5 oclock. Chain noise is still there! The only thing it can be i suppose is the rear chain, as everything on the front is good. I don't know what to do now. I've already got a lot of money and work into it(this is not the only project ive done on it). I'm supposed to sell my car now after i got this running. I don't know, maybe i'll just get a AAA membership in case it blows, and drive it till summer when i have more time and wont freeze to death and pull the motor. The thing is, i only bought it a month ago, so i have no idea how long its been making the noise. If it just started i wouldn't feel to nervous about putting it off a bit as it seems a lot of people get thousands of miles from when it first starts. AHHH! shoot me now. Merry Christmas to meeeee. Oh and before i forget, i can feel a TINY, and i mean TINY bit of added vibration around 2500 RPM from not having the balance shaft, but dremeling off that chain was definatly worth not dealing with the upper pan.

Adam.

 

[ragajungle]

it will be cheaper to pull the motor and replace the rear cassette than not - as this is an interference motor and they are in high demand for this very reason. you are better off fixing it - because locating a used one will be a challenge.

Sorry for the issues on Christmas - bummer

 

[2000StreetRod]

Pin pulled?

I'm sorry that your chain rattle persists. I assume that you replaced the primary tensioner since you mentioned dropping one of the bolts. Did you remember to pull the release pin? Do you have any photos of the engine with the front cover removed?

 

[adambant]

No, i didn't take any pictures with the cover removed. Guess i should have. I did replace the primary tensioner and cassette with the updated parts (6 leaf spring), and i did pull the pin. I also replaced both front and rear hydraulic tensioners while i was at it. I'm convinced it is the rear guide. I've been driving it yesterday and today (no choice with the snowstorm in the northeast) and the more i listen from outside the car, but even moreso in the car, it does seem to be coming from the back of the motor/close to the dashboard. I wish i wish i wish i had a garage to work in as right now that is more than half the battle as its blistering cold and were supposed to get 12-16 inches of the white stuff dumped on us by tomorrow. I love snow and normally i would be happy. meh.

Adam.

 

[2000StreetRod]

cat shields

You may want to lay on the snow near the catalytic converters to make sure you're not hearing the heat shields rattling. It is fairly common for the welds to break allowing them to rattle.

The rear timing chain rattle usually results from the cassette guide breaking on the traction side and the chain slapping against the upper positioning bolt. Often the guide will break near the lower pivot and is not visible from above but usually allows vertical movement. Is the chain rattle loudest when the engine is cold started?

 

[adambant]

It is definetly loudest for the first couple seconds on a cold start before the oil gets up top, the sound makes me cringe like nails in a blender, i envision that poor chain unwillingly being scraped against somthing very dry and with force. I did not lay down in the snow : to check the heat sheilds on the cats but i know its not them, i know that sound quite well from a few of my SHO's and mustang in the past. The only way im really gonna now whats going on is when if I pull the motor and fix it the right way....

 

[adambant]

?

I had a thought. Do you think its plausible that maybe the new tensioners, now putting the "full" tension on the "old", fatiqued guides/cassettes could have broken one of them on first start up after i put it all back together? And why do you ask if it rattles the most on cold start? \ That point towards hydrualic tensioners yes? The parts I used are all from a Duralast brand(autozone) timing kit i bought on ebay. Wonder if that has anything to do with it? Just thinking outloud, throwing out ideas.

Adam.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Cold start rattle

In my opinion the springs in the hydraulic tensioners are inadequate. The spring pressure in my new tensioners was less than in the original ones. I wish that Ford had continued to use the ratchet/hydraulic style tensioners that they used on the OHV V6 and currently use on the SOHC and DOHC 4.6L V8 chains.

I suspect the reason my cold start chain rattle was worst was due to the increased oil viscosity increased the time for the oil to flow to the tensioner and the chain itself. I solved the delayed oil flow problem by installing a pre-oiler (Accusump). I wait 5 seconds after turning the ignition key to run before cranking the engine. During that time the oil pressure builds to the value it was when the engine was previously shut off.

I have only used Ford OEM timing chain components and would only use them or the Cloyes kit since one of their engineers told me they include guides made by the same manufacturer that makes Ford's. Did the rattle in the rear start after you replaced the primary and camshaft chain tensioners?

 

[adambant]

I have a plan....sorta.

Ok. been thinking about this. I think i have a plan. Im gonna pull the valve covers and timing cover again to see whats going on. im going to be very thorough and take detailed photos of everything as well as a video of how it sounds currently before i start tearing things back apart. if everything stills seems to look good, i will replace the hydraulic tensioners with FORD parts as well as get the oom12 kit. if it still makes noise after all this i will just drive it till spring and look for a 2003 or newer engine from a mustang or whatever, swap engines and be done with this headache. I greatly appreciate and look forward to ur advice and opinions with this. Also, is there a chance you have the part numbers handy for the two hydraulic tensioners, and is oom12, do i have that correct? Thanks so much!

Adam.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Part numbers

The timing chain related part numbers are in post #2 of the following thread: SOHC V6 Camshaft Timing
I try to keep the numbers current by checking them with the tousleyfordparts online data base.
If you purchase the 00M12 kit (PN YL2Z9E473AA) it includes the front (left) hydraulic tensioner and only costs $8 more than buying the tensioner as a single item. The PN for the rear (right) hydraulic tensioner is 7U3Z6K254A.