Rotors And Brake Pad Question

[itzbinnice]

Just dropped off my X for the annual State Inspection.
Thought I'd treat myself and have the shop do a complete brake job. I trust this shop and I have requested they do this for the past two years and each time they tell me your brakes are still good. I bought the 95 X used in 98 with 30k, it now has 50K.
Usually when I buy a used car I always have the brakes replaced immediately. I've rambled long enough, now for my questions. The shop manager tells me he has been getting many Explorers and Expeditions with rusted frozen rotors, both front and rears, he has to pound them so hard that sometimes they crack. He goes on to say these are not vehicles that go off roading or put boats in the water, just everyday pleasure vehicles and newer models such as 98's. Have any others experienced this problem with their rotors. He did say that he remembers my rotors were in good shape last year and did not display these signs. perhaps he was just preparing me for the worst case scenerio.
He is going to replace the brake pads with Raybestos Ceramic Low Dusting. Does anybody know anything about these pads, pro or con.
I hope to pick up the vehicle tomorrow, I'll post on what the results were, and if a jar of Vaseline was needed to pay the bill.

 

[Nonoy]

I was been using Raybestos Ceramic enhanced and so far I don't have any problem. My observations: quite, makes a lot of difference in stopping, dust? maybe less compared to the rear, is almost the same.

 

[mrboyle]

I run into rusted-on rotors all the time (daily). It is more common on vehicles that are used for (like you said) towing boats or water craft, followed by farm trucks that are constantly used in mud. The reason he was warning you is just to let you know that it is posible that even though your rotors were still good (not too thin) it will be necessary to replace them because they were/may be damaged during removal.

 

[itzbinnice]

Well got the vehicle back, had to stop at the bank first to get a loan. Total came to 813.00, boy did that hurt and the guy didn't even buy me dinner.
Turns out the front rotors had to be replaced at a cost of 98.00 (parts only) each. There was not enough meat on them to cut. The rears were cut. He put the Raybestos Ceramics on the front only, cost of front pads,
120.00. He put regular heavy duty Raybestos in the rear. Can get the Cearmics in Pep Boys at half that price.
He also said the rear stabilizer bar was shot and replaced it. I am really not sure it serves much of a purpose. Serpentine belt also replaced which he said showed signs of cracking. Oh well, looks like I'll be good for about 5 years now unless something else goes wrong. I like keeping my vehicles in top shape but these prices are getting out of hand. Looks like I won't be treating myself anytime soon, just have to get down and dirty and do it myself.

 

[LukeDog3D]

Rear stabilizer bar shot?? I can understand maybe the bushings or end links, but even that would be rare. Sounds like a ******** mechanic to me.

 

[jimbo74]

another 5 years huh? i doubt it... i go through one set of brake pads at least once a year.... maybe 2-3 for the rears......

 

[aldive]

Originally posted by jimabena74
another 5 years huh? i doubt it... i go through one set of brake pads at least once a year.... maybe 2-3 for the rears......

How many miles does the represent?

 

[itzbinnice]

Yeah, I think 5 years is a do-able number. You see I only average about 7 K a year on the Explorer and drive her gently so that figure is attainable.
As far as the rear stabilizer bar goes, I do think I got shafted on that one, he probably could have just changed the bushings as mentioned.
As for the rotors, I think the 98.00 each he charged was excessive although there is probably a psychological reason for it. He doubles the price of the part and gives you a cheap price on labor to make you think you are getting the labor at a reasonable price. Actually the inflated price is labor costs. Later I am going to do a search to see how much replacement rotors go for, I would think they are in the 50-60.00 dollar range. He said he put on Raybestos rotors, don't know if that makes any difference but I will look for a price on those to match apples with apples. He made a comment to me saying some of the newer cars now are coming with disposable rotors, meaning everytime you change your brakes the rotors must be replaced also, since they are unable to cut them. The Explorer is not one of those vehicles. Has anyone else out there heard of this,
Perhaps Mr. Boyle who has extensive experience with this. This annoys me, more and more we are filling our landfills with junk that if designed properly could still be working for it's intended purpose.

 

[Robert]

To add to what the others have said: Don't rush out and replace your serpentine belt when you notice it cracking again next year. A serpentine belt will crack soon after installation. It isn't a problem until there are chunks about 1" or longer missing or if two ribs are missing chunks next to each other. That is the way it is described in my Haynes manual. If it has been a few years since you have replaced your belt then it didn't hurt anything. Just don't replace it because you see cracks in it.

Regarding the rotors, Performance Products has a set of cross-drilled, slotted rotors for about the same price as you paid for the Raybestus rotors. They might be a bit more, but not much. I am considering putting them on mine the next time I have to do the brakes since my rotors have been cut twice already. Anymore and they won't be the required thickness so I know I'll be replacing them. I put the premium Raybestus rotors on my Wife's '93 Sable. They ran me about $25 but they were probably a little smaller than the Explorers. $98 for Raybestus rotors, I would think you got shafted, especially after seeing that he charged you for the rear sway-bar. Unless you have bent it up by heavy off-roading, it can't go bad. The bushings can, but they are cheap. I put a set of polyurethane bushings on for about $35 on the rear. The standard rubber bushings would be about half that.

With only 7K a year on your Explorer, you should make 5 years as long as you look into any strange noises that might develop after sitting for extended periods. If you drive it regularly over the course of the next 5 years you should make it.

 

[itzbinnice]

Robert

Yeah I do think I got shafted with the rotors and the rear sway bar. The guy that manages the shop was on vacation and this was the assistant. Maybe trying to make a name for himself, my loss this time, but his loss in the long run since I won't go back.
As for the Serpentine belt it was the original and over 5 years old, I believe in preventive maintenance. Rather spend the money now then break down and need a tow, or worse yet damage the engine by trying to make it to a shop.
I am curious about these rotors you intend to buy, I read on some posts they run cooler but will not last as long. One would think just the opposite that they would last longer. Are you going to only put them in the front or rear also, are they available for the rears?
It seems that even with 4 wheel disc that the burden of the breaking goes to the fronts. Do you know the percentage of the ratio's from front to rear on 4 wheel discs. Perhaps doing the rears also would be overkill and not worth the extra expense.

 

[JDraper]

The comment the mechanic made about "disposable rotors" is BS!! There are some rotors out there that are more prone to warpage due to manufacturers going to thinner and thinner rotors to save $$ and weight. I know of several model cars that came with crap for rotors. The older Tarus models, the late model Bronco's and the Crown Vics all had problems with brake rotor warpage. I'm sure there were a lot of others out there too. As for the disposable part, and needing to replace them every time the brake pads are changed... BULL!! The only time your rotors should be resurface or replaced is when they are either scored or warped (brake pedal pulsing). If they aren't either, you can just replace the pads as they wear out. I ran my '92 Explorer for 100k + miles and never had to do anything with the rotors (or the rear drums for that matter)

 

[stilbo]

Disposable rotors

I own a 93 xlt, a Probe (Mazda), and have owned Mustangs and Merkurs and had a company Taurus and ALL but the Probe have had the rotors turn to S__T earlier than they should have. Best explanation from an engineering stand point that I've heard is that cold quenching hot rotors in standing water (driving through monster puddles after hard to medium sustained braking) will really do a warp job on many Ford rotors. Construction design and the type of iron would make a difference here.

I replaced the Merkur and the '93 xlt with GOOD AFTERMARKET (not Ford) rotors and have had no problems with wiggly braking (warped) or pad eating (cracked rotors).

Regarding the disposable rotors......

I recently performed a front brake job on a '94 Cadillac Eldorado.
Most parts on this car cost an arm and a leg but the rotors were only $26.00 EACH! GM figures it's easir and safer to maintain good braking qaulity when the rotors AND pads can be replaced economically. (Unlike the $450.00 Vacuum booster that I rplaced on a '96 GMC P/U !)

And as far as land fills go......
I recycle all scrap iron and Al....
Small steel producers (flat rolled products) around here in NW Indiana get ******* if they get a trainload of scrap blocks, rotors, axle housings etc.... These all have high Nickel content and are very clean and strong types of iron.

Dr. Ron

 

[Lemondrop]

Originally posted by JDraper
The comment the mechanic made about "disposable rotors" is BS!! There are some rotors out there that are more prone to warpage due to manufacturers going to thinner and thinner rotors to save $$ and weight. I know of several model cars that came with crap for rotors. The older Tarus models, the late model Bronco's and the Crown Vics all had problems with brake rotor warpage. I'm sure there were a lot of others out there too. As for the disposable part, and needing to replace them every time the brake pads are changed... BULL!! The only time your rotors should be resurface or replaced is when they are either scored or warped (brake pedal pulsing). If they aren't either, you can just replace the pads as they wear out. I ran my '92 Explorer for 100k + miles and never had to do anything with the rotors (or the rear drums for that matter)

Actually you are supposed to cut the rotors even if they arent warped . It seats the pads quicker . You just don't have to cut as much material off the rotor to rough it up for a seating . Next time your bored , put a set of pads on a car without turning the rotors and go do a stop check . Check the distance it takes to stop . Go change the brakes and cut the rotors , then recheck the stopping distance . It will be shorter . Of course Ive installed pads on my vehicles without cutting the rotors but Id never do it on a customers vehicle .
The disposable rotor thing , as the poster above said it's cheaper to replace them than cut on some brakes .
I put brakes on a Chevy Beretta and the rotors were 14 bucks a side . If You take them to a machine shop to have them cut it's 7 to 10 bucks a rotor . Easier to buy new

 

[Robert]

Originally posted by itzbinnice
. . . I am curious about these rotors you intend to buy, I read on some posts they run cooler but will not last as long. One would think just the opposite that they would last longer. Are you going to only put them in the front or rear also, are they available for the rears?
It seems that even with 4 wheel disc that the burden of the breaking goes to the fronts. Do you know the percentage of the ratio's from front to rear on 4 wheel discs. Perhaps doing the rears also would be overkill and not worth the extra expense.

Here is the link Dead Link Removed

I was incorrect about them being crossdrilled though, but they are slotted. The fronts run about $115 each, the rears are about $99 each. I plan on putting them on all fours in about 20K miles. I replaced my original pads at 50K and had a decent amount of material left. I had already purchased the Performance Products Pads so I went ahead and put them on. I could have gone another 10K or so.

 

[itzbinnice]

Robert

Thanks for the link, slow as heck but looks very interesting. I like the idea of them being cadmium plated to prevent rust. My new Raybestos rotors are 6 days old now and already show a faint bit of rust and it hasn't rained all week. For the extra 17.00 bucks I would have went for the slotted ones. Good luck with your intended purchase and I hope they work well for you. I still am pissed at myself for letting the guy screw me whom I trusted. However, I look at the bright side, this is only a small price to pay for the lessons of life. which hopefully will make me that much wiser.
Gotta run now, time to watch my Yankees get there clocks cleaned by Schilling & the Dbacks.