Start Up question?

[Roadking]

97 Explorer XLT - 4L SOHC - 60k
Had my Explorer into Ford to replace the intake o-rings. They did this and told me three
things needed to be replaced. MAS, plugs and wires. Since I couldn't locate a MAS that
day I had them install it and I did the plugs and wires.
Everything worked great for about two days, then I noticed it was taking longer for the
engine to start after I turned the key. It used to start right off, maybe a 1/2 a second
on the starter and it was running strong. Now it takes a good second. Doesn't seem like a long
time but it's very annoying. Plus it seems like the engine is dead until it hits the 1 second
mark then it fires.

Could I have overlooked something when I installed the plugs and wires? I replaced every
thing with original equipment Motocraft parts.
Should I reset the computer?
Maybe I have a bad MAS, it was a rebuilt unit.

Any ideas?

 

[Roadking]

Does anyone know what the difference is between a Motorcraft AWSF-22P spark plug which was original
equipment and a AGSF-22P. This is what Ford sold me.
I wonder if this could be a cause?

 

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

Roadking, I think the difference between the AWSF and AGSF sparkplugs is the threads. One is completely threaded, and the other is partially threaded along the shaft of the plug. This should make no difference in the running.

There's a good chance the starting delay is caused by the MAS. I would re-set the computer, and see if that helps. Also check the MAS connector plug for a good connection.

 

[Roadking]

I reset the PCM this morning. I removed the positive battery cable(?) and left it sit for about 20 minutes.

Still the same.

Maybe I'll unhook the battery overnight and see if that does anything?
It's cheap enough!

 

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

Roadking, I wonder why the Ford dealer said you needed a new MAS? Maybe their scan showed a MAS related code, and they just thought it was a bad MAS. If you still have the old one, I would put it back on and see if the symptoms are the same.

You might also try spraying the MAS connector with WD-40 or something similiar. Plug and unplug it a couple times, and see if anything changes. Ford has had trouble with these connectors in the past, and at one time even had a recall on some.

Good luck.

 

[aldive]

I too am wondering why they replaced the MAF????????????

 

[Roadking]

I was having the classic engine idle fluctuation on cold starts and the check engine light was on.
They said the idle was the o-rings and the check engine light was a lean MAF.

Here is what the invoice reads:
Misc engine diag "P0171 & P0174" Lean MAF .7V
Replace MAF and clean IAC

They said the MAF was not repairable.

I still think it's the MAF that changed the starting mode? but I don't have the old one since there was a core charge to the dealer.

I'll try cleaning the MAF connection and resetting the PCM.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Robert]

First off those two codes (P0171 & P0174) do not necessarily mean that your MAF sensor is failing! Two things that can cause the codes are leaking lower intake manifold o-rings or a bad MAF sensor. They don't both have to fail to get the codes. When I had the two codes three years ago, it was due to my leaking o-rings. My still original MAF has 100K on it and still works like new. Unfortunately Ford recently issued another TSB for the two codes which is related to a bad MAF. That TSB in conjunction with the ONP 00M12 which also points to the same two codes gave your dealer a chance to charge you for a repair that probably wasn't needed. I would have had them replace the o-rings first under warranty per their program. If that didn't fix the codes, then and only then would I have authorized them to replace the MAF at my expense. Actually, I would have found one elsewhere and put it on myself. It would have given my the excuse I need to get a larger aftermarket one.

 

[Roadking]

Robert,

I've read a lot of your replies and trust your opinion.
I wonder if I would have any recourse with Ford at this point?
The dealer pointed out that the codes were due to the leaking o-rings and the .7V reading on the MAF showed that it was malfunctioning. They laughed when I asked them to just clean it. They assured me they couldn't clean the MAF and I needed a new one.
Since this took place on a Saturday afternoon and I couldn't locate a MAF, plus I needed the truck by Monday (which they knew) I was stuck at their mercy. So I reluctantly agreed to have them do it.

When I called them this morning about the problem they basically gave me the brush off.
If it starts and runs o.k. there's nothing they could check. What's the big deal, another
1/2 sec. on the key.

I didn't think the MAF could be bad since the truck started fine when it was warm before I brought it in.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

 

[Robert]

What conditions did they check your MAF voltage? The specifications are as follows:

KOEO = 0 VDC
Hot Idle = 0.6-0.9 VDC
30 MPH = 1.3-1.7 VDC
55 MPH = 1.5-2.3 VDC

Unless they obtained .7 VDC while driving, your MAF voltage is within Ford's specifications. Any chance you got it in writing that they measured .7 V? If so, I would go back and demand that they put my old one back on. If they couldn't come up with it, I would ask that they refund the price. Ask them to look in their Ford Service manual for the proper voltages because you have. These reference voltages came from my Ford CD, so I don't know what page they would be on in their manual. Maybe someone here has a printed version that could provide a page number. If you could go in and tell them what page to look on for the reference voltage it would strengthen your position. Otherwise they are likely to just say that they looked up the values and yours were outside the limits. Since they are the so called "experts" you have to take their word for it. At that point it up to you as to how far you want to pursue it. You can threaten to take them to small claims court. If you have a printout of the .7 V they recorded and an official Factory Ford Service manual (maybe you can check one out at a library?) that should be all a judge needs to see that they charged you for a repair you didn't need. I took an automotive shop to small claims court once when the camshaft I paid them to put in failed after two weeks. Their position was that I supplied the camshaft and since the one I put in two weeks earlier also failed they couldn't be held liable. The judge told the shop owner that since they willingly took the job and my money they were the ones responsible for making sure everything would work together. I got my money back. Sometimes all it takes is the threat of taking them to court for them to reconsider their position (especially if other customers are becoming interested in the conversation). Other times all it takes is sitting down with the Service Manager and explaining to him why you don't feel you were fairly charged (I did this to get a $125 radiator flush removed from my bill).

Regardless, it won't be easy and entirely depends on how far you are willing to carry it. My expleriences with Ford Service Advisors tells me it won't be easy regardless of how it turns out.

 

[Roadking]

Robert,

Thanks for all the information.
I called the dealer back this morning this is what they told me.
They stated that the .7V that was on the work order is a nominal reading at idle. They put it on the work order for reference.
Here's the kicker, they said the MAF was replaced because I authorized it. They brought it to my attention because the check engine light was on and their technician doing the diagnostics had data that pointed to a defective MAF. They have no record or stored data from the test to show me.

Sounds like you hit it on the head.

So I guess the best we can do is use this as a $300 learning tool.