Think I fried the tranny - TSB 03-22-10

[Russ in CT]

OK, I am apparently a moron, somebody keep me away from the toolbox.

Over the weekend I did TSB 03-22-10, to correct a sloppy 2-3 shift and no engine braking in 1st. After a slight mishap with not connecting the manual valve (thanks to Glacier99 for knowing just what was wrong), and getting to take another red shower, everything seemed OK, 1st was fixed, shifting seemed better, no leaks. I drove it around for about 15 minutes, and declared it done.

So the wife takes it out the next day, says its driving much better, but we got a code to pull (O/D light flashing). OK, I'll have to take it somewhere and get the code pulled. But the next day, yesterday, she needs to take it again. She left early, and when I went out I noticed some tranny fluid in the driveway. OK, guess I got a leak, gonna have to take care of that tonight. But when the wife gets home she calls and says its smoking and making bad noises. I figure the leak is dripping on the Cat, causing the smoking, but the noise thing has me worried, it didn't seem like that big a leak.

So I get home and the speedi-dri I put down in the AM now has a gorge in it where a flood (a red one) had apparently washed through, and man does it smell bad

I pull the dip stick, and its bone dry, and smells. I crawl underneath and can't really find much evidence of the leak. A little moist around the gasket, and also around the new drain plug I installed, but the pan itself is pretty much bone dry, as is the Cat. If it was the gasket, I would have expected to see large runs down the side of the pan, and all over the underneath as it got blown around at highway speed. I can only assume its that drain plug I installed. So I added a couple quarts of tranny fluid, and waited, and waited, not a drip.

How did this thing manage to leak so bad that I lost all the tranny fluid in one day, yet I can't get it to leak one drop after I add fluid? It didn't leak when I first put it together, it doesn't leak now, maybe only when it gets warm it starts leaking?

I didn't like the looks of that drain plug kit when I opened it, I should have tried to find a better one. Its from Pep-Boys, its got a pair of plastic washers that go on either side of the hole in the pan, seems OK, but the drain bolt just has this stupid o-ring on it. If you tighten it down too far, it just bulges out at a point, and you have to back it off enough to let it reseat and try again. No grove or anything for the o-ring, it just sits there like a washer. I used lock-tite on the threads that secure the kit, and torqued it down well, but that drain plug was as tight as I dared make it without getting a bulge.

It didn't leak when I put it together, so I figured if I had any problems down the road, I could come up with something better than that stupid o-ring.

So asumming it only leaks when it gets hot, and somehow leaks enough to lose most of the tranny fluid, and got hot enough to cook the tranny fluid that ended up in the driveway once it got home from its ~30 mile last ride, how much hope is there my tranny survived?

Should I just tow it to a tranny shop and tell them to rebuild it? (I'm guessing that is gonna be in the $2K range, wife will kill me if I don't do it myself first) Should I pour in some more fluid, start it up, and see what happens? How do I flush out all the burnt up fluid that is still in there (in the TC, etc)? Should I try to find a used tranny to drop in there?

How did this thing still move without any fluid?

 

[Glacier991]

last Q first... it cannot. So you had some fluid there. You clearly had slippage and overheated the oil... which can, by the way, vent thru the overflow tube when it gets hot enough to boil.

How could it have leaked that bad? I'm guessing it's that drain plug.....other than the pan gasket you didn't fool with anything else.

Me ? Here's what I would do. Drain anything left in it..... remove the pan and redo the plug getting rid of the 0-ring and using some silicone. I'd fill it with 4-5 quarts of fluid and then conduct the flushing procedure where you remove a cooler line and add fluid as it'd pumped out... (there is a thread on it) use clear tubing... and keep pumping old out and adding new in until bright red fluid is coming out.... you may need upwards to 15 quarts total....

Button it up, and go for a short (SHORT - long enough to heat things up but not too far) drive and listen for noises etc. Come home and check for leaks...And keep your fingers crossed you hear nothing and see nothing. I'm quietly thinking you may skate thru this with a little shortened trannie life....hoping maybe.

Hope that gives you something to start on. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Russ in CT]

Thanks for the suggestions, gonna go look for the 'flush procedure' thread, but I think I pretty much got the idea. 15 quarts! Ouch, the stuff is $3.50 at Pep-Boys, sure, it beats buying a new tranny, but sheesh...

The vent tube, huh? I was eyeing that suspiciously last night. I think the 'flood' that left its mark in the speedi-dri was from the vent tube, would explain why it left a 'gully-wash', it spilled out all at once from a single spot. I'm thinking once it was shut off, and no more radiator helping cool things off, temps went through the roof and lots of fluid boiled over. Same thing probably happened day before, but not as bad, which is how fluid I saw in AM got there.

 

[Russ in CT]

OK, so I drained the fluid, and at first out came the bright, cherry red fluid I'd added a few days ago, but then after that, this horrible yellow stuff, it was all I could do to keep from gagging the stuff smelled so bad. Why was it floating on top of the new stuff? (new stuff came out first, clean).

So I decide to pull the pan, and see what is in there, and change the filter again (still plan to flush it, too). Aside from the smelly yellow fluid, its fine.

The amount of fluid that came out was over 6 quarts (I'd added a bit less than 1.5 quarts the other day to look for leaks). I don't think my root problem was a leak, I think the only stuff that spilled out came from the vent tube, and that this was caused by a severe overheat condition.

So now my issue is, what casued it to overheat? I decided to remove the VB and make sure I put it back together properly, no missing checkballs, etc. All seems OK. However, when I first had the VB out, before the overheat thing, one of the spool like piston and springs fell out while I was turning it over. It was one that has a solonoid, which was out at that point, and this piston does not have a keeper. I reinserted it spring first, as that is how I thought it came out. Could this be my problem? Maybe it goes the other way?

Thre are two pistons that don't have keepers, in this photo (not my photo, stole it off another post here) they are the ones associated with the solonoids on the bottom right, and top right. Each consists of an easy to fall out piston and spring. Does anyone know for certain how these are supposed to go into the VB? Spring first, or piston first (piston touches solonoid, or spring touches solonoid)?

What do these two solonoids (and pistons) control? This was supposed to be an easy job, and it should have been, but I managed to somehow screw it up royally.

Does anyone know where I can get an exploded view of the 5R55E VB, such as the one for the AL4D in this link: (about 2/3 down on this page)
http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12-techinfo/trans-tech/4r70w_rebuild.html

What else (that I could possibly have screwed up with just the pan and VB off) could cause the tranny to overheat that badly that quickly (a ~20 mile ride on the highway, cooked fluid to yellow, smelly mess).

 

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

Russ, in the pic, the bottom right 'hole' is the one that contains the thermostat. Was this the one that parts spilled out of? If so, it contains 8 separate parts, of which the last 2 or 3 may have spilled out. Going from the outside in, theres a retainer, then the large spring, then the thermostat valve, then another valve that looks like a spool, then a smaller spring, then a 'barbell' plug, another shorter spring, and lastly a cooler limit valve (smaller than the rest).

This thermostat keeps fluid from flowing through the radiator cooler until the fluid reaches operating temp. Maybe a part went in wrong, and kept the fluid from circulating through the cooler??? That's all I can think of.

For this to be your problem, the keeper would have to come out, and if I remember, it's not that easy to just fall out. If you didn't have this area apart, just disregard.......

 

[Russ in CT]

Not the bottom right bore, the bottom right solonoid (and top right solonoid). The bores associated with these solonoids, what do they do?

All the bores in my VB have keepers, except two, the ones associated with the solonoids on the bottom right, and the top right in that photo. Both of these bores have pistons that easily fall out (when the solonoid is not present). I removed the solonoids from the bores, but left the electrical connections in place when I removed the VB, not realizing these bores did not have retainers (the solonoid acts as the retainer I guess).

So when I was handling the VB, one of these pistons fell from its bore. So now I have a piston and spring in my hand, and I'm not entirely sure which way its supposed to go in.

I just went to the local library, then to the Ford dealer, then to an auto parts store, trying to find an exploded view of the VB to show how these componets go together (when I told the dealer service dept I wanted an exploded view, they thought I meant I wanted a larger size printout. they didn't know what the term meant).

So now I'm desperately seeking an exploded diagram...

 

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

OK Russ, I have an ATSG manual, but no scanner. I'll try to explain as best I can:

The bottom right solenoid in the pic is SS3, and the spring goes into the bore first, then the valve with the narrow lipped portion next to the spring. Then the solenoid, and that's it for that bore.

The top right is the TCC solenoid. The spring goes in first, then the valve with the wide end next to the spring. Then the solenoid, and that's it.

Both those solenoids are held in by the clamps, and would indeed fall out when the clamps are removed.

Anything else, I'll try to describe as best I can.....

 

[Russ in CT]

Great, thanks!

OK, so both go in spring first (that is how I had them), they both seem to have a 'peg' or stud on the tip that the spring fits neatly over, which certainly seems as if it was designed for the spring. However your comment that 'wide' end on the TCC goes toward the spring seems to condradict that. I'll have to go take a look again and get back to you.

You mention 'clamps' that hold these items in the bores. The only thing holding these bores in place on my VB is the solonoids (which are held on by brackets, which themselves are held by the bolts that mount the VB to tranny). All the other bores have 'keepers', either a flat metal insert that slides into place at the end, or a bent wire that is inserted more centrally in the VB. I'm not certain what you mean by clamps, these inserts, the bracket that secure shte solonoids, or something else?

TIA...

 

[Russ in CT]

OK, the top right bore, this piton has a hole in the 'wide' end, which the spring can fit neatly into, and the 'narrow' end is like a peg which the spring can easily fit over (much like the piston in the 'lower right' (solonoid) bore).

The way I had it was the spring going over the peg, spring first, so that the wide end, with the hole, was facing the solonoid. Sounds like I had that backwards? Can you verify that the spring goes 'into' a hole in hte wide end of the pisotn, and that the 'narrow' end, which is narrow enough for hte spring to fit over, goes toward the solonoid?

Thanks much for helping!

 

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

Can you verify that the spring goes 'into' a hole in the wide end of the pisotn, and that the 'narrow' end, which is narrow enough for hte spring to fit over, goes toward the solonoid?

Russ, yes that looks like the way it fits in the diagram. You must have had the spool reversed originally.

///////// [[[[[[[[[-----[]-----[]------{{{{{}}}}}
SPRING________VALVE____________SOLENOID


This is a poor rendition of the TCC assembly, but maybe you can get the idea. The dotted lines are actually the narrow portion of the valve.

Sounds like you've found the trouble, and hopefully caught it in time.
Anything else, just post. Keep us informed and good luck.

 

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

Oh yeah, I call them brackets too. The manual calls them clamps, and that's what I wrote. Same thing. "A rose by any other name........"

 

[Russ in CT]

Actually, that is a pretty good diagram, and it confirms I had it backwards, Dhoh! Well I feel better that now I know what went wrong, and that its not going to overheat like that again. We'll see once I get it back togeher if I did any real damage to the tranny overheating it (though no friction material bits, debris, etc were in the pan, so I guess thats a good sign).

Its interesting that this TCC piston has two ends that both look like they were made for the spring. Many of the springs in the VB fit over 'pegs' in the piston, so when this one fell out, that is how I thought it went. A thinking designer would have made it so the spring could only really fit one way (and I guess a thinking mechanic wouldn't just assume how it went back together without looking it up somewhere to confirm).

So while I'm putitng this all back together, I'll be contemplating why the TCC could make it overheat so badly, so quickly. If it (having the piston backwards) simply caused the TCC to not engage, then I'd be wasting some gas, and I could see maybe getting a little hotter than its supposed to, but not spill over the vent and burn the fluid in 30 miles hot. Having the piston backwards couldn't have caused the TCC to be locked all the time, or we'd have had stalling problems, etc, couldn't miss that.

So anyone want to take a stab at why having the TCC piston in backwards would cause a VERY severe overheating problem?

 

[Russ in CT]

OK, so I got the TCC piston back in its bore properly (thanks for the diagram), replaced the filter, flushed the system as suggested, and no more overheating. I did not find any material in the pan.

Now the bad news, the O/D light comes on after driving for several minutes. I got the code pulled, its P0741, TCC not engaging properly. It shifts fine (except when the light comes on it goes into 'high pressure' mode, and the shifts, both up and down, are decernably firmer).

After I flushed the burnt fluid, the new fluid still has a bit of burnt aroma (its cherry red, but smells).

The tranny shop is recommending a new Torque converter ($400 parts, $600 labor). They're thinking that the backwards piston caused the TCC plates to burn, and they're slipping, causing the P0741 code, and that the new fluid has picked up the smell from these burnt plates. The TCC does in fact engage, it can be felt (~200 rpm drop, etc), and its typically a minute or so after it engages that the light comes on (but nothing is felt when it comes on), but of course its not possible to feel if its slipping once engaged.

The tranny shop says they know its not simply the TCC solonoid, as they did a engine diagnostic (Snap-on reader, diagnostic involved engine rev'ed itself to ~2K, operator presses brake, turns steering, etc), and the diagnostic was clear (they said if it was an electrical issue with the solonoid, the engine diagnostic would have picked it up).

They are also recommending a new VB ($400 parts), as they say the bores wear out (122K miles on tranny), and that there is "a 90% chance that after the torque converter is done the light will come back on within 30 days" due to the VB.

They said even though the truck was only driven ~30 miles with the overheating problem, that is enough to burn the clutch plates (and indeed, it was enough to totally toast the fluid and boil over out the vent).

It certainly seems more reasonable that the backwards TCC piston and resultung overheating would burn the TCC clutch as opposed to damaging the TCC solonoid. However the solonoid is pretty cheap, so I'm thinking of giving it a shot before I pull the trigger on a $1K replacement of the converter.

What do you guys think? Can you think of a reason the solonoid could be the problem based on what was done wrong?

Assumming its not the solonoid, should I just go ahead and do the torque converter?

With 122K on it, should I just get it rebuilt (~$2K instead of $1K)?

Anything sound fishy with what the tranny shop stated? Are their prices reasonable for the quoted work?

 

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

That's very disappointing, Russ; I wouldn't have thought that so little driving would have ruined it.

I doubt if another TCC solenoid would help. I say that, because of the yellow debris you found floating on top of the fluid; maybe burned up clutch material??? Then again, that stuff might clog up solenoid screens, I just don't know.....????

It sounds like the trans shop was on the level, with what they told you. If it were mine, I'd probably bite the bullet and have it completely rebuilt (with respect to the mileage already on it).

Maybe others can offer more advice....

 

[Russ in CT]

Glacier991, Enurb, Brain - help

I never found any debris in the fluid, it was just very yellow, and very burnt (it got hot enough to boil out the vent). The new fluid I added did sink to the bottom, so the yellow fluid 'floated' on top of the red. I suppose it could have been yellow from suspended material, but then I would have thought that would sink, not float.

Anyway, I found the torque converter can be bought for like $150, so the $400 the shop is asking is way outta line. I called a bunch of other shops, and was quoted parts & labor from $500-$750 for the job. So the $1k the first shop was asking is a apparently excessive.

It occured to me that with all the mounting & dismounting of the VB, I could have damaged the solonoid, or simply dislodged the connector (though if it were the connector, I'd expect the TCC not to lock-up at all).

One shop mentioned a Ford test that can more accurately diagnose the problem? Does anyone know what they might be refering to? Would this tell me anything?

If it needs a TC, I'll do the TC. The one thing I don't want to do is spend nearly $1K on a TC, only to find that wasn't the problem.

 

[Russ in CT]

I just discovered an L pin in the debris left over from the last time I had the VB off. Apparently it fell out the last time I had it off, and I didn't notice.

Is there any chance a missing L pin could cause P0741? I would have thought they just hold stuff together during disassembly, not perform any actual function during operation, but since I found one missing, and I still have a problem...

Does anyone have a diagram showing the location of all the L pins?

 

[CDW6212R]

Hello Russ, you recall that I had two of my "L" pins fall out while I installed the TransGo kit? I had an ATSG manual, and there is a poor picture on page 52 that shows the valve body parts. Those pins look like they are supposed to separate parts of a valve assembly while operating. There are six of those "L" pins.

I'd avoid changing the valve body, unless you know it is bad. The valve body is very very unique for each specific model of transmission. It is probably not possible to replace one with an exactly matched calibration. Do check the solenoid screens very carefully. They can clog up, and then not work properly. Good luck,
Don

 

[Russ in CT]

OK, does anyone know if any of the L pins are for the TCC bore? Is it possible the TCC is not locking up fully (P0741) because of a missing L pin?

Is there any way to be sure if the TCC in the TC is bad causing the P0741 (TCC not fully engaging)? (and not something else, don't want to spend the $$$ on the TC replacement only to still have the prob) A test that can be performed, etc?

Is there any test to tell if sufficient hydraulic pressure is being applied to the TCC (for instance if the solonoid were leaking, etc)?

 

[Glacier991]

A line test that goes low in any particular gear can sometimes tell you things....anyway as to the other question....I am finally getting you the promised diagram. (my apologies)

Here is the overdue 5R55 Valve body diagram.

 

[CDW6212R]

There are two "L" pins behind the SS4 solenoid. There is one"L" pin behind the SS2 solenoid. There is one behind the Reverse Modulation valve, two valves from the EPC solenoid. There is one behind the Forward Modulator valve, next to the Manual valve.
The other "L" pin is behind the Thermostat Bypass valve, which is the corner valve next to the SS3 solenoid.

Good picture Chris.