Transmission noise/burnt fluid... Please help!

[762mm]

My '99 Sohc XLT is behaving in a very strange way and I'm wondering if it's safe for me to drive it on longer trips... First of all, there seems to be a whistling sound coming from the back of the engine/transmission area whenever the RPMs are above 1000 or when it's cold, and the whistling gets more intense as the RPMs rise (In all gears - P, R, N, D....). It fades away a bit once the truck is warm, but can still be heard when I give it gas.

Secondly, the "O/D Off" light started flashing while driving on the highway today and a few days earlier too... It doesn't come on or flash during city driving. The transmission shifts fine, and it has no visible problems in changing gears, but I have just checked the fluid, and it's black! I changed it maybe 5000 miles ago, put new fluid/filter in the pan, and did a trans flush... And I never drove this thing off road - it's mainly used for city driving only.

Any help or input would be very appreciated. I don't really have a spare car available, and I need the truck to get to work every day. Thanks in advance for your interest and your help...

 

[BrooklynBay]

Did you use Mercon V fluid when you changed your fluid? Mercon III could cause slippage. As for the black fluid, how many miles are on your transmission? You could have burned up clutch plates, or bad gaskets that are falling apart. I'm also wondering if your vehicle runs hot all of the time. The excess heat could be causing your transmission to overheat. Do you have an external cooler? Do you tow anything with a hitch?

 

[762mm]

My fluid was Mercon V compatible when I changed it, I made sure of it and triple-checked (Quaker State Semi-Synthetic ATF). My truck has 117 000 km (about 85k miles) on it, and the transmission is most likely the original one (I bought the truck used).

My truck is always within the normal temp range (I changed my Prestone last year) and I have the towing package on it (with the stock tranny cooler). I never tow anything, and I don't transport anything heavy. Just before the "whistling" sound started, I've heard like a loud metallic noise from underneath the truck when I was leaving my driveway one day, but figured it was the exhaust (that rattles quite a bit). I don't know if the whistling noise is tranny-related, but it sure sounds like it's coming from that area...

 

[BrooklynBay]

It might be the chain inside of the transfer case that is rattling. Does it make that noise in 4H, and 4L?

 

[762mm]

I didn't check the 4x4 system, I have it in auto all the time... Plus I don't think the trans fluid would burn because of a rattling transfer case chain. The rattle/whistle sound might be completely unrelated (like the exhaust), but I find it weird that it started at the same time that my o/d light and fluid problems began.

Anyway... Going to the dealer now, they will do an evaluation of the problem. Knowing my luck, I expect the worst... :fire:

Update: Well, I dropped the car off at my friendly local Ford dealer, and now I'll have to wait till the end of the day for the good news. I checked the trans fluid again (in the daylight this time), and I think I was wrong to say it was burnt - it is not black, but rahter metallic gray... There's definately tiny (microscopic) particles of ground metal in there, like you see in an old tranny filter when you change it. I hope it's just a clogged filter and the need for a fluid change... After all, the tranny engages and shifts perfectly, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's just something simple (if there was actual major metal pieces missing, I think I'd feel something in the shifting... but I don't).

 

[762mm]

Well, I just got the call... They say I at least need a new torque converter, and they want $2800 to fix that, maybe other things too if there's more damage (no warranty that it won't cost more). Or $4500 for a rebuilt transmission... They haven't opened the transmission or anything, but they seem sure that's what the problem is.

Ok... That just made my day. I'll try to look around and see if I can get a better deal or a second opinion. I knew it would most likely cost quite a bit, but this is waaaay too much. :fire: :fire: :fire:

 

[BrooklynBay]

I would stay clear of that dealer, and try another place. They are clearly trying to rip you off, and steal your money. You could get a remanufactured transmission, with a torque converter, and installation for around $2k. I know a place that sells rebuilt torque converters for under $100. It is a few hundred to install, since you would have to remove the transmission. Maybe it would be around $600-$800 just for a job like that with a torque converter, filter, and fluid.

 

[Glacier991]

There is, best as I recall, a TSB on a whistling separator plate. You might investigate that.

Metallic particles in the fluid is not a good sign.

 

[762mm]

Along with the $400 torque converter, they also added a gasket kit for about $250 and a transmission kit for another $250... and 14 hours of labor at approx $80/hour! (all this not including the taxes). They also added a solenoid assembly as a required part, I forgot for how much. And the kicker is that there's no guarantee that this will fix the problem, it's just a guess on their part.

 

[Glacier991]

Run RUN RUN away! Charlatans!

 

[762mm]

The Report from Ford:

Yeah, I thought so too... Sorry I couldn't get back with a reply earlier, but I was working so much that I barely have time to sleep...

By the way, I got my inspection done at Desjardins Ford, Roxboro, Qc (Canada).

Here's what the Ford report says (this report cost me $92):
----------------------------------------------------------------------

complaint: trans oil black, o/d flash on highway, whistling sound seems to be coming from rear of engine and increases with RPM.

cause: torque ????

correction: 102 - check oil full of metal and smell bad, check DTC P0741 TCC slipage, road test all shift ok but torque are pump very noisy when giving gas, trans need to be open and estimated. perform estimate on trans ass and possible part needed to repair.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Evaluation: (next sheet)

Part#: Labor (Hr.): Parts: Labor: Total:

Overhaul Trans (estimate) 15.4 1482.70 1354.43 2837.08


Repl. Trans by a rebuilt 9.8 3226.54 861.91 4088.45


(Excluding applicable taxes - Labor rate $87.95/hr)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Third sheet (parts):

Part #: Description: Total:

1 xl2z-7902-aarm Converter As (556.63)
2 foxl2z-7902-aarm Core Return (-70.00)
3 xl2z-7a103-ab Kit - Transm (261.02)
4 mtk-28900-d Kit - Gasket (244.63)
5 ft-134 Screen Asy (19.05)
6 xl2z-7g383-aa Solenoid Asy (272.59)
7 4l5z-7d034-aa Band Asy (76.26)
8 1l5z-7z490-ga Plate - Cont (33.03)
9 xw4z-71000-aa Nut - Sealin (13.24)
10 cxt-5-lm12 Fluid - Trans (76.20)

Total: 1482.65

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


So, my estimate mentions that this is subject to increase, depending on the kind of damage they find when they open it up (and I'm sure they'll try to find something). They even suggested for me to use the four and a half grand (that I would spend on a rebuilt tranny for my Ex at their shop) as a downpayment on a new vehicle instead... and they were totally serious about it. Yeah, that's a good one, but I have to say I didn't find it funny at the time... and I still don't.

 

['97 V8]

tell em to suck it and take brooklyn bays info. They see a problem and its automoatically a tranny rebuild.

 

[Glacier991]

On pricing... remember folks, he is in Canada... think exchange rate and dealer pricing.

 

['97 V8]

theres not really a whole lot of a difference with US and CAD dollars nowadays. Im already used to the CAD now and imo he will be paying a lot.

 

[Wrench]

Costs

Right this very moment it costs $113 CND for every $100 US so it does add up fast. By the time we pay border duty, taxes, shipping, brokerage we could end up paying more than if we just bought the part locally.

 

[762mm]

Well, I can just tell you guys that the good folks at that dealership will not get a penny for the tranny job... I'm gonna start calling local transmission shops next week to find a better deal. Even the labor costs at Ford are an overkill...

I'm just wondering what I should be asking for.... A simple torque converter replacement, a general overhaul of my current transmission or to buy a rebuilt tranny and have it installed (the last option will most likely cost the most). Like I said (and even the dealer confirmed it), the tranny shifts fine so there can't be that much damage inside, at least not yet. Whatever is slowly grinding has to be a non-vital part, right? I did about 1000 km (or maybe more) since the torque converter noise started, and there has been no diffrence in shifting (I checked the fluid out of curiosity after a friend at work suggested a bad torque converter - I thought it was the exhaust at first).

Anyway, thanks to everyone for your interest and your help so far. I would really appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction on what to do next. Thanks again....

 

[BrooklynBay]

The only way to determine if you have metal fragments floating around would be to test your fluid with a magnet. Pull out a little fluid, and see if a magnet grabs these fragments. The thing that makes me curious about the dealer's estimate is how they could have determined what is wrong without opening it up. They didn't look at the band, unless they found pieces of a band floating around in your pan when they checked it out. Did they really drop the pan, or just examine the fluid? It is possible that either the TCC solenoid is partially clogged, or the filter in the VB is clogged, and is causing that P0741 code to come up. The TCC, and EPC solenoids are modulated, so they aren't like the older solenoids where you could just do a click test, and spray them out. I would suggest that you drop the VB, replace/clean the internal screens, TCC solenoid, gaskets, and check the bores for any debris that could be clogging anything up. There is also a spring in the housing that could get blocked from metal filings. You will see it when you drop the VB. Read the 5R55E VB rebuild diary, and get the ATSG manual. If your transmission is working perfectly most of the time, then it can't be the entire transmission that is going bad. It is very strange that you have such dirty fluid after flushing it out, but it is hard to believe that the entire transmission is going. The only other thing that I could think of would be if your internal thermostatic control in the VB would have gone bad, and blocked fluid circulation to the external cooler, then the transmision would have been constantly overheating, and eventually burned everything up.

 

[762mm]

They didn't open the transmission at all, and did not drop the pan. I was told that this transmission is about to die, and that the most reasonable option would be for me to have them put a rebuilt one (yeah, at 4.5 G's!)...

I'm going to unhook one of the hoses leading to the radiator later on and see if the fluid is any diffrent from the one on the dipstick, as I don't have the time to open up the pan right now. I can't begin to tell you how bad the timing of this entire thing is (I had plenty of time to play around with stuff like that just a few weeks ago, but not anymore...). Thanks for the reply Brooklyn, I really appreciate it.

 

[BrooklynBay]

What did they actually do for you when they gave you the estimate if they didn't open up anything? Did they scan your computer, and guess on whatever else has to be done?

 

[762mm]

Update

Ok, got the tranny fixed... I had to go to a transmission shop, and they pretty much rebuilt everything that was defective or was about to die. The guy from the tranny shop said that the torque converter was so worn to pieces that he didn't even know how the truck could still drive and shift properly... there was metal everywhere. They changed the torque converter and all kinds of other things (sorry, I don't have the rebuild report with me right now), plus they put in a new solenoid pack in there (on my request, the old solenoids were contaminated according to the guy), and there's a 1 year/20,000km warranty on the tranny now. The whole thing cost me $2,200 CDN with tax, so I guess it could have been worse (like going to Ford). I'm just glad the freakin truck drives normally again... The funny thing is that now a lot of strange noises that used to be present are gone (after the rebuild), but Ford never found anything wrong with the truck while it was still on warranty not long ago during inspections (it had an extended 7 year warranty). Thanks to everyone for your interest and input.