Trouble shooting help need on "cranks with no start"!

[bjesse60]

2002 with same symptoms

Hi I don't want to hi jack the thread but my wifes 2002 explorer died going down the road today and it also cranks with no start i can hear the pump come on with the key and there is pressure to the rail, and spark from the coil pack, when it spins over it sounds real smooth and there isn't a hint of ignition at all ? I relased the pressure on the fuel rail and just clicked the key on and it built right back up, I realize this doen't mean it has the pressure it needs, should that be my first step checking with a gauge or coiuld this be a simple sensor problem. Should I unhook the line and attach gauge there ? Thank's for any help! Brandon

 

[aldive]

I would check that fuel pressure.

Good luck .......

 

[rickpotz]

I would check the pressure also.

Or, you can disconnect the fuel line before the fuel filter and turn the key to the on position. If you see fuel, you know it's not the fuel pump. If there isn't fuel, I would pull the fuel pump.

You can bypass the whole system buy running two wires from the battery: a ground and positive.

You can disconnect the wiring harnass and run the ground to the black wired terminal and the positive to the red wired terminal on the harnass.
This will turn the pump on and bypass everything. You can see if it pumps fuel out of the detached line. You should have a good flow.

If it doesn't, replace the fuel pump. First check the line to make sure it isn't clogged.

This is what I did to troubleshoot my car. The pump can run and not pump. That is what happened to me.

I finally got mine fixed and running.

If you don't have fuel pressure tester, it may be worth to tow your car to a Tunex.
My understanding is that they can pinpoint the problem for you and it costs about $50.
This is what a friend told me. You may want to car first.

I just bought the pump not the whole assembly. It cost me $108 for the pump plus about $60 for tools. I bought the fuel tester for $40.

The hardest part is removing the fuel lines from the fuel filter. You need a special tool: 3/8" line tool. The trick is to spray the connections with W-D 40 and push the lines back and forth to free the connections. The fuel line end has two or three tabs that lock over the fuel filter connection protusion. The tool pushes these back off the fuel filter protusion. You will hear the tabs release as you push the tool in. Once you hear the click pull the fuel line back quickly. Sometimes the connections stick. That is the reason for turning the lines back and forth. It takes patience.

Hope this helps!

 

[bjesse60]

checking fuel pressure

ok, I will be going to autozone tomorrow to see about a fuel pressure gauge something tells me its not the fuel pump but could be wrong, it comes on everytime with the key and builds pressure in the rail not sure how much yet (how do I tell what is the correct amount?) Should I spray a little starting fluid in the throttle body just to see if it would try to start to make sure it is a fuel problem, if so and it tries to start what else could cause this (fuel pressure regulator, cam sensor, crank sensor?) Like i said in my first post it shut down on my wife on the road and hasn't tried to start since has spark at the coil pack so seems as if fuel is not being distributed to the cylinders?
Thank's Brandon

 

[cjones101812]

when you're at autozone see if you can borrow NOID lights to check the injectors firing. they may loan you the fuel pressure gauge too.

 

[rickpotz]

when you're at autozone see if you can borrow NOID lights to check the injectors firing. they may loan you the fuel pressure gauge too.

when I went to autozone here in Utah they didn't carry a fuel pressure gauge with the ford adapter. You may want to call first.

 

[rickpotz]

It sounds like you have some fuel pressure.
I would spray starter fluid and see if it starts. Mine did.

If it doesn't start, I would be more inclined to think the problem is something other than the fuel pump.

If it is, it may be harder to track your problem without getting a diagnostic tool (computer). Most dealers have them and from what I understand Tunex can do a similar diagnostics for less.

There are several sensors, fuses switches, and relays that can cause no starts. The oil sensor and inertia switch (from what I've read) can directly affect the pump.My understanding is that they stop the pump from pumping. If so, this would rule out these two parts.

The fuel pump fuse and pump relay would also affect the pumps performance. No power to the pump.

The crank sensor and the cam sensor can affect the start of your car but without affecting the pump.
It affects the firing time. These sensors watch your cam and crank and tell the computer to do something at a particular time, thus, if there is no information or the incorrect information, it affects the firing of your engine.

From reading other posts, these two sensors are very difficult to test without a diagnostic computer.
Individual tests with an voltmeter were unsuccessful. The good news is that one of these is only $15 at Pepboys.

My suggestion is
1) spray starting fluid and see if it starts. According to your post, this probably won't start your car.
If it does, test your fuel pump. If you can hear it, it must have power. Either it isn't pumping enough or not at all.

If it doesn't start,
2) check your fuse, pump relay, and inertia switch ( you can swap other indentical fuses and relays in your fuse box under the hood. This is just a precaution. Nothing should be wrong with them if you can hear your pump-- it must have power. But, this will only take you a few minutes.

3) Have someone test your other sensors and computer with a diagnostic tool.
OR replace your crank and cmp sensor.

4) Your oil sensor turns the pump off if it doesn't send the correct oil pressure reading.

This is my understanding according to what I have done and read.
It may not be complete. If not, it would be helpful for others to fill in the blanks.

5) testing your injectors would be a good thing especially if your car starts when you spray starting fluid. This would signal anything that has to do with your fuel and fuel delivery to your engine. My understanding is your engine should start if only two of your injectors work. I believe this is correct. Note: if only two injectors work, your car won't run very well though.

You should understand that your vehicle consists of different systems. If one thing in the system doesn't work, performance of that system suffers. As you understand the system, its parts, how each part performs or doesn't perform, and how to test for that performance, you can troubleshoot your problem. That is why I'm being so specfic.

This forum is a great why to understand those systems when others post information on each system, its parts, provide information on how those parts are supposed to perform, and different ways of testing each part. That is why I joined and have taken the time to post my understanding. I think this is a great opportunity to learn more about our vehicles.

Thanks to all for their help.

 

[bjesse60]

new update !

Hi, hope you guys can still help I am really confused now I checked the fuel pressure with a gauge this time and it is 60 pounds at the rail which the manual says it should be, checked computer with hand held scanner and no codes shown do not know if this is due to when i unhooked the battery, could this clear the code or just the check enginge light? I still have spark and I checked the cam through the cam sensor hole and luckily the timing chain isn't broke the sensor was pretty dirty so i cleaned it with no luck. Now I am lost what else could it be I have no code to go off of what else can cause no code and not let the injectors fire, could it still be the crank or cam sensor doing this? Some one told me to check the fuel pressure regulator but couldn't find one in the manual only a fuel pulsation dampner what does this do? Its on the end of the fuel rail and the fuel feeds in the opposite end of the rail so don't see how it could affect fuel getting to the injectors. Thank's n advance for any help !

 

[rickpotz]

Did you spray starter fluid and try to start your car?

You can test the injectors with a noid light. It will show whether your injectors are firing.
If the injectors are working, it would have to be one of your sensors.

Does the scanner read the functions of the sensors? If so, check your sensors with your scanner.

It could also be your computer. You should be able to test your computer with a scanner
also.

One other possibility that I read about was the cars security system but if you have spark and fuel, I would assume that it is something to do with the delivery of your spark.

From what I have read, disconnecting the battery can clear the computers memory, thus codes.

 

[bjesse60]

starting fluid (no luck)

I did try the starting fluid with no luck which is hard to believe since I have spark at the spark plugs, thinking about trying your suggestion on replacing the cam and crank sensors could either one cause the spark to be so far out of time that it wouldn't try to start off the fluid? I will check the injectors tomorrow just seems that if they were firing all the time I would have flooded the engine cranking so much and would have fuel smell out the exhaust which is not the case? Could these two sensors still be not letting them fire but giving fire to the coil pack. I assume I may have cleared the pcm since there was no code surely it would have stored something. Thank's

 

[rickpotz]

If you feel that you should have flooded your engine, you can check buy looking at a plug after your crank it alot. There should be gas on it.

Mine started after using starting fluid. My problem was my fuel pump. You could hear the pump pumping but there was no fuel pressure and when I bypassed the car system, the pump didn't pump fuel.

Will sensors cause your problem? Absolutely! If you read some of the other posts, which I did. One member tested many of the things we talked about. He ended up having his car towed to the dealer. The dealer replaced the crank sensor!

The crank sensor is used for the timing of the engine. It is done through the computer.
If the timing is wrong, it would be the same as having no timing belt (almost). Both the cam and the crank determine car timing.

I doubt that your problem is related to your fuel injectors but it is easy to test.

About the fuel pressure regulator, if you have good pressure, my understanding is that that would eliminate the fuel pressure regulator.

I don't know if this is possible but with the cam and crank sensors you may be able to remove them and take them to a dealer and have them test them? Call the dealer and ask.

I called several parts places and they quoted me $15 for the cam sensor. I can't remember what price he gave me for the crank. I think it can't be much more. Some stores quoted me higher. It pays to call as many stores as you can.

 

[bjesse60]

Rickpotz

Thank's Rickpotz you have been a lot of help. I replaced the battery today just to rule that out, didn't expect to fix anything but thought it was getting weak and they tested it and confirmed it was indeed bad. Back to the no start I replaced the crank sensor today with no luck, they didn't have the cam sensor in stock so will have to try somwhere else if that doesn't get it I am about out of options unless this could be a pcm problem which would be over my head to diagnos(hope not!) Anyway I appreciate all your help so far and I will keep trying. Thank's Brandon

 

[cjones101812]

have you checked injector pulse with a NOID light yet??

 

[rickpotz]

Thank's Rickpotz you have been a lot of help. I replaced the battery today just to rule that out, didn't expect to fix anything but thought it was getting weak and they tested it and confirmed it was indeed bad. Back to the no start I replaced the crank sensor today with no luck, they didn't have the cam sensor in stock so will have to try somwhere else if that doesn't get it I am about out of options unless this could be a pcm problem which would be over my head to diagnos(hope not!) Anyway I appreciate all your help so far and I will keep trying. Thank's Brandon

You are welcome!
I think this site is a great opportunity to help fix our cars. Please understand the information provided is my understanding of how our explorer works.
Some of this comes from my experience, books, and reading other posts on this site. Hope you can trace the problem down. I think we covered all the parts that
can cause your problem. Hopefully, others can offer more help and insight.
Good Luck.

PS. Please let me know exactly what you or someone else finds out the problem is. It will be helpful and appreciated.

 

[bjesse60]

lost ?

Well I have replaced both cam and crank sensors with no luck, double checked all my fuses and fuel pressure it is still 60 pounds, I do believe I was wrong the first time I checked the plugs because I do seem to be getting fuel on them now and I still have spark, but no reaction even on starting fluid at all which to me leads back to timing and as I said I have verified both cams are still turning so I know the chain can't be broke and everyone says its unlikley it would have jumped time. Then I don't see how it could be off far enough not to get a reaction to spark and fuel. I am about to turn it over to someone else before long because I am out of ideas. Should I do a compression test to verify it is in time enough to hold the right cylinder pressure? How can I verify my coil is putting out enough fire it seems normal to me don't see how it wouldn't be enough to get some reaction. I am out of ideas which makes me still wonder if it is the pcm not letting it read the timing but I double checked and still no codes there? Brandon

 

[rickpotz]

Wow! I'm sorry we haven't found the problem.

My suggestion is call the dealership and tell them what you have done.
Ask if there is anyone there that can help talk to about your problem.

If this doesn't work, call all the garages in town that specialize in fords. Ask them.

Also see if there is anyone in town that can do a computer scan of your car. Tunex will do it here. Compare their pricing.

I'm not sure how to test the coil. Try this link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_test_a_coil_pack_on_a_2001_ford_ranger_3.0_v6_4x4

This is for a 2001 ford ranger

Also this is for a 91 for explorer:
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1991657&postcount=16

It says a similar thing but it is more detailed.

I will check my book tomorrow and see if I can see anything.

Also you can go to google.com and put in a search for testing a coil on a 2002 explorer.

Let me know, how things go.

 

[rickpotz]

I found this for you on the coil. This is general information.

I think we need to straighten a few things out about your coil here before we keep going....

The coi recieves voltage at all time the ignition switch is in the run posistion. The ground for the coil will pulse in order to make the coil fire. So lets break this down into an understandable order...

1. Voltage is fed to the coil, and the breaker points or transistorized igniton system completes the ground side of the coil.
2. A magnetic field is built inside the coil.
3. As the engine approachs each cylinder's power stroke the ground for the coil is broken, either through breaker points or a transistorized ignition.
4. The field collapses and put the amperage stored in the magnetic feild back into the coil.
5. Enough voltage is built inside the coil that an arc is created between the cap, rotor, and spark plug electrode and the ground of the spark plug.


Convetional point systems used ballast resistors to drop voltage to the points to around 10V. Older transistorized ignition systems still used the ballast resistor. Today's modern ignition systems, DIS systems, and GM's HEI feed a solid 12V-14.4V to the ignition coil/coils.

The ignition system can be devided into 2 parts. The primary and seconday parts.

The primary side of the coil is the lower voltage side. It involves (I'm including most of the parts since the 1930s on) the breaker points, the primary windings of the ignition coil, ignition module, PIP, hall effect, magnetic pick up coilPCM, ECM, crankshaft posistion sensors, and/or camshaft posistion sensors. These parts work in unison to build a EMF (electro motive force) inside the coil. Without this system the secondary system is useless.

The secondary side of the ignition system is the higher voltage components. It includes plug wires, distributor cap, rotor, spark plug wires and spark plugs. These parts use the EMF to jump the gap at the spark plug.

When checking a non-spark issue you should probably start by...

1. Checking for voltage at the ignition coil.
2. Checking that the ground for the coil is being switched properly.
3. Check the coil wire for breaks or an infinite voltage.
4. Check the cap for broken or missing terminals.
5. Check the rotor for broken terminals or damaged terminals.
6. Check the spark plug wires for breaks or infinite voltages.
7. Check the spark plugs for closed gaps, excessive gaps, and a poor ground.


Basically you have no voltage at the coil, so you need to get voltage there. Either you need a new ignition switch, you have broken wires, the fuse is blown or your terminal in your ignition coil harness is broken.

At the moment fix this problem before you worry about the cap and rotor.
__________________
93 Thunderbird 5.0 HO
89 Firebird L03
95 F150 XL

Get ready for the 351 boss build this summer, 4v closed chamber heads, 2.25/1.75 valves, .750 lift, 12.5:1 piistons, wieand tunnel ram, nitrous, I think its gonna roar!

 

[rickpotz]

Well I have replaced both cam and crank sensors with no luck, double checked all my fuses and fuel pressure it is still 60 pounds, I do believe I was wrong the first time I checked the plugs because I do seem to be getting fuel on them now and I still have spark, but no reaction even on starting fluid at all which to me leads back to timing and as I said I have verified both cams are still turning so I know the chain can't be broke and everyone says its unlikley it would have jumped time. Then I don't see how it could be off far enough not to get a reaction to spark and fuel. I am about to turn it over to someone else before long because I am out of ideas. Should I do a compression test to verify it is in time enough to hold the right cylinder pressure? How can I verify my coil is putting out enough fire it seems normal to me don't see how it wouldn't be enough to get some reaction. I am out of ideas which makes me still wonder if it is the pcm not letting it read the timing but I double checked and still no codes there? Brandon

I haven't heard from you. I'm interested to know if you found the problem?
If so, please let me know what it was you found and how you found it.
Thanks,
Rick

 

[bjesse60]

problem found!

Sorry, I have been real busy lately but I sent it to a friend and told him what I had checked, then i got the call it was a timing issue apparently he thinks the chain tensioner broke and let it jump time he is going to verify which set since he says it has a rear & front set hopfully the front. He talked to some friends and they told him this was a fairly common problem on these explorers. I will let you know when I have more news and thanks for all the help. Brandon

 

[mpollini]

Since my baby rolled over and died in a very similar fashion the other day I'd be interested in any progress you may have made.

I've done most of the same diagnostics you have with the exception of swapping the cam and crank sensors and I don't have access to the necessary test gauges. Good spark, fuel flow (not sure of the pressure) etc... but it won't start even with using the starter spray???

One interesting difference for me is that my check engine light has been on for a while. When I was able to check the code then it was a P0131 (o2 Sensor) error. I swapped sensors around at the time but was never able to keep the error from returning. Does anyone know if an O2 sensor would prevent ignition.