Water pump failure leads to dead engine

[blwnsmoke]

Without any data on the frequency of pump failure we simply do not know if this is a design issue or not. As previously stated there are literally millions of these engines on the road in many Ford & Lincoln models. We do know that there was a suggestion of a class action lawsuit but the law firm back out which leads me to believe they could not document enough failures. I think it is safe to say the frequency is very low.

I feel safe to say it is EXTREMELY low. I frequent a Ford forum that covers not only all Ford makes/models but also Ford employee discussions as well as Ford Motor Company news and competitors news. Many employees in the factories are part of the forum..

My point, nothing has ever been posted on there about water pump issues, failures or motors blowing. There has been discussions of the PTUs in vehicles not lasting like they should but ZERO talk on Water pumps.

In today's world with social media and all the forums, when you get hit with a $2,500-$7,500 repair bill, people search the internet.. people vent.. people post to inquire on the issue to vent/complain etc etc. It is just how it is now...

You will always hear the rare negatives far more then the frequent positives.

Now to be fair.. I won't keep my Explorer outside of my warrant (1 more year to go unless I extend it again) because I don't want a surprise like this. BUT.. I also know deep down that this is an extremely rare problem..

 

[Sixonemale]

I feel safe to say it is EXTREMELY low. I frequent a Ford forum that covers not only all Ford makes/models but also Ford employee discussions as well as Ford Motor Company news and competitors news. Many employees in the factories are part of the forum..

My point, nothing has ever been posted on there about water pump issues, failures or motors blowing. There has been discussions of the PTUs in vehicles not lasting like they should but ZERO talk on Water pumps.

In today's world with social media and all the forums, when you get hit with a $2,500-$7,500 repair bill, people search the internet.. people vent.. people post to inquire on the issue to vent/complain etc etc. It is just how it is now...

You will always hear the rare negatives far more then the frequent positives.

Now to be fair.. I won't keep my Explorer outside of my warrant (1 more year to go unless I extend it again) because I don't want a surprise like this. BUT.. I also know deep down that this is an extremely rare problem..

I could not disagree with you more. Put "duratec 3.5 l water pump issues" in Google and you'll find multiple cases where the water pump has failed and caused the engine to seize. Even a law firm posted this issue. Simply put water pumps are not designed to hundreds and thousands of miles, that's why they are usually mounted external to the engine and with many auto manufacturers are replaced with the timing belt. I think this is an issue that is not spoke about and brings in substantial revenue to Ford.

You also say:

"Now to be fair.. I won't keep my Explorer outside of my warrant (1 more year to go unless I extend it again) because I don't want a surprise like this. BUT.. I also know deep down that this is an extremely rare problem."

If you know deep down the problem is rare go ahead and keep the vehicle. It sounds like you don't want to play roulette.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[blwnsmoke]

I could not disagree with you more. Put "duratec 3.5 l water pump issues" in Google and you'll find multiple cases where the water pump has failed and caused the engine to seize. Even a law firm posted this issue. Simply put water pumps are not designed to hundreds and thousands of miles, that's why they are usually mounted external to the engine and with many auto manufacturers are replaced with the timing belt. I think this is an issue that is not spoke about and brings in substantial revenue to Ford.

You also say:

"Now to be fair.. I won't keep my Explorer outside of my warrant (1 more year to go unless I extend it again) because I don't want a surprise like this. BUT.. I also know deep down that this is an extremely rare problem."

If you know deep down the problem is rare go ahead and keep the vehicle. It sounds like you don't want to play roulette.

We can agree to disagree.

And where did that class action lawsuit go? I believe Nowhere.. And why didn't it go anywhere?? Hmmm..

And lets play with some numbers...

How many of these 3.5 motors have been made?? Between the F150, Explorer, Flex, Taurus, Edge and all the Lincoln variants. 1 million seem like a reasonable number?? I believe it to be over that but I'm going to go with 1 million to be on the safe side.

Now how many failures do you think there have been that have blown a motor? More then 100?? More then 200? I seriously doubt it is that high... But lets go with 200. That is a 0.0002% failure rate.

Now your comment along the lines of Ford is making a bunch of money off this quietly.. If it is just a pump replacement, Ford is making a couple of dollars.. it is the dealer that is making the money on labor, not Ford. If it is a motor being blown then of course Ford does make a profit but if you really think Ford would choose a little profit over negative press/social media (online forums, facebook etc) then you are crazy in your thoughts.

They crunch numbers, they see failure rates, they know whether they have a problem or not.

Yes.. this water pump issue is a major issue... (sarcasm)

 

[blwnsmoke]

Also to add, I don't keep a vehicle out of warranty regardless of make/model. I always buy an ESP and I sell the vehicle before it is out. It has nothing to do with my explorer or a concern of the water pump. It has to do with not wanting to deal with repair bills. On top of that, the value I can get selling a used vehicle with a warranty still intact is a lot easier and higher value then selling one that is out of warranty and "AS IS".

Between my wife and I paying for our mortgage, our vehicles, my 2 kids in private school, I do not need any surprise repair bills.. whether they are $200, $1,000 or $5,000.

 

[Sixonemale]

"And where did that class action lawsuit go? I believe Nowhere.. And why didn't it go anywhere?? Hmmm.."

Shortly after it was posted it went away...hmmm

"How many of these 3.5 motors have been made?? Between the F150, Explorer, Flex, Taurus, Edge and all the Lincoln variants. 1 million seem like a reasonable number?? I believe it to be over that but I'm going to go with 1 million to be on the safe side.

Now how many failures do you think there have been that have blown a motor? More then 100?? More then 200? I seriously doubt it is that high... But lets go with 200. That is a 0.0002% failure rate."

You need to qualify this statement with mileage, unless you are saying the water pump will last the life of the engine.

"Now your comment along the lines of Ford is making a bunch of money off this quietly.. If it is just a pump replacement, Ford is making a couple of dollars.. it is the dealer that is making the money on labor, not Ford. If it is a motor being blown then of course Ford does make a profit but if you really think Ford would choose a little profit over negative press/social media (online forums, facebook etc) then you are crazy in your thoughts."

My bad, I consider Ford Dealerships as being Ford, but yes they do make in a lot in labor replacing this water pump or a seized engine.

"They crunch numbers, they see failure rates, they know whether they have a problem or not.

Yes.. this water pump issue is a major issue... (sarcasm)"

I've asked for statistics, not a tough task in the information age, that would put this issue to bed if it was minimal. Even statistics for just one state like CA with a lot of these engines that would suffice.

Again, we can agree to disagree. This is an active and passionate enough forum that we will both learn a lot about this issue over next two to four years.

 

[blwnsmoke]

You will never get numbers. Ford will never release numbers nor will any other manufacturer.. It isn't just Ford.

Let me correct that last statement. The only way to get numbers is for everyone who has a failure to report it to the NHTSA. The only way numbers will ever be produced is if the NHTSA launches an investigation. Ford will then have to report numbers back to them which then becomes public information.

Example - The power steering issue. Ford had to report back date ranges, model years, how many failed, how many caused accidents and based on how many were built, what the failure rates were.

This is the only way to get that type of pertinent information that people are curious about.

For anyone having this issue, file a complaint.. let the NHTSA do their job.

 

[reserved50]

main issue is not a water pump leaking, that's acceptable at the rate they're going so far, sure its an expensive item to change, problem is that water the pump can leak into engine oil and destroy it=bigger problem than just a water pump.
It would be kind of like having your brake master cylinder above the exhaust and fluid leak onto it, ok no big deal its just a leak, but leaking onto the exhaust and light the vehicle on fire=bigger problem. Which would be a bad design because master cylinders do leak over time.

 

[Sixonemale]

main issue is not a water pump leaking, that's acceptable at the rate they're going so far, sure its an expensive item to change, problem is that water the pump can leak into engine oil and destroy it=bigger problem than just a water pump.
It would be kind of like having your brake fluid leak onto the exhaust, ok no big deal its just a leak, but leaking onto the exhaust and light the vehicle on fire=bigger problem

The water pump is about $40 part and can cost probably in the range of $1,500 to $2,300 to replace and that's if you are lucky enough to detect that it is leaking before it gets into the engine oil.

It's also about having confidence to take a lengthy road trip with an engine that has over 100,000 miles on it. Some auto manufacturers require that their timing belts be replaced at about 90,000 miles and most owners replace the water pump when this task is done.

There are plenty of ways to statistically come up with failure rate with both "givens" and "assumptions" just by using dealership data from one state or even large city.

Again, this issue will sort itself out over time and I hope I'm wrong.

 

[blwnsmoke]

The water pump is about $40 part and can cost probably in the range of $1,500 to $2,300 to replace and that's if you are lucky enough to detect that it is leaking before it gets into the engine oil.

It's also about having confidence to take a lengthy road trip with an engine that has over 100,000 miles on it. Some auto manufacturers require that their timing belts be replaced at about 90,000 miles and most owners replace the water pump when this task is done.

There are plenty of ways to statistically come up with failure rate with both "givens" and "assumptions" just by using dealership data from one state or even large city.

Again, this issue will sort itself out over time and I hope I'm wrong.

Honest question, does the Ford manual tell you when to change the timing chain (I haven't looked)? I know it has been posted many times that it doesn't tell you to change the water pump in the maintenance section through the 150k section. But if one is supposed to change the timing chain, then the pump should be done at the same time. And doesn't the motor require essentially the same amount of work to change the chain?

Heck, at my buddies garage, he was changing the timing chain on a Jetta with the VR6 in it. Although he didn't have to pull the motor, the transmission was sitting on the ground so he could tear into it.

And to be fair, I also think one has to separate the failures of the pump leaking externally from the pump leaking internally.

-----

Oh, on a side note, my service advisor who I've been dealing with since 2007 was talking to me about the water pump failures on the explorers. He told me that he has done 3 of them, all just water pump replacements leaking externally and all of them were the same owner (Fleet of Explorers).

He couldn't believe that the motor had to be pulled... his comment to the tech was "go ahead and do it, should be ready in an hour" when the tech laughed and told him to "follow me" where he brought him back and showed him what had to be done.

So I'm not defending Ford as a Ford loyalist.. I think I'm just being realistic in that this isn't as big of an issue as people are trying to make it out to be.

 

[Sixonemale]

Honest question, does the Ford manual tell you when to change the timing chain (I haven't looked)? I know it has been posted many times that it doesn't tell you to change the water pump in the maintenance section through the 150k section. But if one is supposed to change the timing chain, then the pump should be done at the same time. And doesn't the motor require essentially the same amount of work to change the chain?

Heck, at my buddies garage, he was changing the timing chain on a Jetta with the VR6 in it. Although he didn't have to pull the motor, the transmission was sitting on the ground so he could tear into it.

And to be fair, I also think one has to separate the failures of the pump leaking externally from the pump leaking internally.

-----

Oh, on a side note, my service advisor who I've been dealing with since 2007 was talking to me about the water pump failures on the explorers. He told me that he has done 3 of them, all just water pump replacements leaking externally and all of them were the same owner (Fleet of Explorers).

He couldn't believe that the motor had to be pulled... his comment to the tech was "go ahead and do it, should be ready in an hour" when the tech laughed and told him to "follow me" where he brought him back and showed him what had to be done.

So I'm not defending Ford as a Ford loyalist.. I think I'm just being realistic in that this isn't as big of an issue as people are trying to make it out to be.

I don't believe there is a mention of the timing chain in the manual. A timing chain is something that I do associate much more with the life of the engine and don't think it's failure rate is anywhere near that of a water pump.

We are not talking about German technology, their cars are known for high labor cost, not easy to repair, but great driving cars. Japanese technology is superior to most from a reliability and maintenance cost perspective.

Agreed that we should be just talking about water pumps leaking in general.

"He couldn't believe that the motor had to be pulled... his comment to the tech was "go ahead and do it, should be ready in an hour" when the tech laughed and told him to "follow me" where he brought him back and showed him what had to be done."

Please post the name and location of your service advisor because if he takes him only one hour to replace the water pump in a Duratec 3.5 L engine then the total repair cost should be less than $200.

 

[blwnsmoke]

Please post the name and location of your service advisor because if he takes him only one hour to replace the water pump in a Duratec 3.5 L engine then the total repair cost should be less than $200.

Sorry, I can see how you could misinterpret that.

What he meant was he didn't know that he had to tear into the motor. One could say "well shouldn't he know being a service advisor" but he is mainly a Diesel Service Advisor (8 bay diesel section and he handles all diesel servicing).

He was expecting an external pump that just needs to be changed.. not an internal like this design that requires basically a partial tear down of the motor. That's why he said an hour.

So he was shocked at the labor involved in just a water pump failure and was the one to deliver the bad news to the same customer 3 times for 3 vehicles. I didn't ask whether he was in warranty or not but based on the tone of our conversation, I assumed he wasn't.

 

[reserved50]

timing chains on the ecoboost engine also seem to stretch at the 100K mark, good idea to change the water pump at the same time . A leaking water pump on a long trip shouldn't be a worry if its leaking externally and the overflow bottle has a low level sensor, or the engine over temp light comes on. If the engine doesn't have a low coolant level sensor and it leaks internally to the engine oil that would cut a trip short for sure.

Can someone check of there is a level sensor for the coolant, yes I'm just being lazy, that almost would be a way out from Ford. As soon as a few cups of coolant go missing the light should illuminate.

 

[baxdaddy]

Welcome to the forum, tlbig10; let's see what I can do to turn this situation around for you. Send me a private message (PM) with your full name, best daytime phone number, VIN, current mileage, and servicing dealership. I'll get to work on some options to help.

Crystal

 

[FordService]

Thank you for the info, baxdaddy! I sent you a response to your PM.

Deysha

 

[blockerm]

I just joined and wanted to add into this discussion. I don't have an Explorer but a 2012 F150 Ecoboost. We just found coolant in the oil and it was traced to a failed water pump. The truck is at 55K miles and the issue was caught at a routine oil change. I didn't know it had an internal water pump, so I didn't understand how it could have happened without a head gasket failure or cracked block. This forum helped to explain the cause...so many thanks.

Luckily I have the extended warranty. Learned the hard way not to ever trust forced induction engines without one.

At any rate, it is a bit concerning about the design and how it fails. It appears it was caught early enough before it caused any damage to the engine. I hope to get some feedback from the service manager on how often this is occuring and any early warning indicators.

 

[peterk9]

Welcome to the Forum blockerm.
Thanks for joining in.

Peter

 

[Sixonemale]

I just joined and wanted to add into this discussion. I don't have an Explorer but a 2012 F150 Ecoboost. We just found coolant in the oil and it was traced to a failed water pump. The truck is at 55K miles and the issue was caught at a routine oil change. I didn't know it had an internal water pump, so I didn't understand how it could have happened without a head gasket failure or cracked block. This forum helped to explain the cause...so many thanks.

Luckily I have the extended warranty. Learned the hard way not to ever trust forced induction engines without one.

At any rate, it is a bit concerning about the design and how it fails. It appears it was caught early enough before it caused any damage to the engine. I hope to get some feedback from the service manager on how often this is occuring and any early warning indicators.

Was your coolant overflow tank drained or empty? This has me me thinking that since the cooling system is a closed system that Ford may want to think very seriously about putting out a TSB or Recall that would provide a sensor in the overflow tank so that if it empties itself out rather quickly or simply goes low, the sensor would let the owner know that the cooling system needs to be inspected ASAP. I believe there is a warning light if the cooling system or engine gets too hot, but I'm not sure there is a sensor that would detect the coolant in the overflow tank losing it's volume. If the coolant starts to leak into the oil due to water pump failure, I'm not sure this would raise the engine temperature until it's too late, therefore, a sensor in the coolant overflow tank might be helpful. I currently check my overflow tank quite often because I don't trust this internal water pump design.

 

[Sixonemale]

I just joined and wanted to add into this discussion. I don't have an Explorer but a 2012 F150 Ecoboost. We just found coolant in the oil and it was traced to a failed water pump. The truck is at 55K miles and the issue was caught at a routine oil change. I didn't know it had an internal water pump, so I didn't understand how it could have happened without a head gasket failure or cracked block. This forum helped to explain the cause...so many thanks.

Luckily I have the extended warranty. Learned the hard way not to ever trust forced induction engines without one.

At any rate, it is a bit concerning about the design and how it fails. It appears it was caught early enough before it caused any damage to the engine. I hope to get some feedback from the service manager on how often this is occuring and any early warning indicators.

Blockerm, Did you ever get feedback from service manager of how often the internal water pumps are failing and if there are any early warning indicators?

 

[edino]

Is Ford the only company that implemented this type of water pump design in their engines?

A water pump is a maintenance item, with limited life span, and it should be easy accessible. And when they fail, they should never be leaking coolant directly into the oil circuit. On paper it maybe a nice engineering feat by Ford; but in practical terms this design is setting up owners for large repair bills. Looking at the video link a few posts ago, its unbelievable how complex the work is that needs to be done to change the pump....

I think Ford has made mostly very nice and durable engines, but I think this one is big mistake by Ford.

 

[Sixonemale]

Is Ford the only company that implemented this type of water pump design in their engines?

A water pump is a maintenance item, with limited life span, and it should be easy accessible. And when they fail, they should never be leaking coolant directly into the oil circuit. On paper it maybe a nice engineering feat by Ford; but in practical terms this design is setting up owners for large repair bills. Looking at the video link a few posts ago, its unbelievable how complex the work is that needs to be done to change the pump....

I think Ford has made mostly very nice and durable engines, but I think this one is big mistake by Ford.

My guess is that Ford is not the only auto company that has an engine with an internal water pump design, but is probably the largest auto company that mass produces this design. From an older post in this thread: “The internal water pump has the potential to affect all model year 2007-2014 Ford vehicles containing a Duratec 35 (3.5 liter) engine, including: 2007-2014 Ford Edge, 2007-2010 Lincoln MKX, 2007-2014 Lincoln MKZ, 2008-2014 Ford Taurus, 2008-2009 Ford Taurus X, 2008-2009 Mercury Sable, 2009-2004 Ford Flex, 2012-2012 Ford Fusion Sport, and 2011-2014 Ford Explorer." The year 2014 could now be replaced with 2017 on some or all of these vehicles. As you can see the internal water pump engine design is not that old, about 10 years old.

I'm guessing again, but I think the Explorer owners might be more sophisticated owners from a mechanical/maintenance perspective than let's say other Ford vehicle owners, plus many of the 5th generation Explorer owners have owned previous generation Explorers and know how past Explorer engines performed and understand the costs to maintain them. With all of that said, the best case with this engine would be to detect a leak from the internal water pump right away resulting in a repair cost to replace the water pump that would range from about $1,500 to $2300. Worst case would be the coolant leaking internally into the oil causing the engine to seize or malfunction with no warning that would result in having to replace the entire engine.

Since the cooling system is a closed system, I would think that Ford may want to think very seriously about putting out a TSB or Recall that would provide a sensor in the overflow tank so that if it empties itself out rather quickly or simply goes low, the sensor would let the owner know that the cooling system and/or internal water pump needs to be inspected ASAP. This may catch a leak from the internal water pump in its infancy stage thus preventing it from causing major harm to the engine. Not perfectly sure about my logic, but it seems that some sort of warning device beyond the engine over heating needs to be added to detect an initial internal leak from the water pump into the engine oil.