Water pump failure leads to dead engine | Page 16 | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

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Water pump failure leads to dead engine

Should Ford cover part of all of this repair out of loyalty?

  • Yes, a water pump failure at 95k should not destroy an engine

    Votes: 155 87.6%
  • No, and please quit whining about it

    Votes: 22 12.4%

  • Total voters
    177
Are you saying that some Explorers with the 3.5 engines have external water pumps?
Not the 5th generation from what I gather since they all have the transverse engine.

Peter
 



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Are you saying that some Explorers with the 3.5 engines have external water pumps?

Every RWD vehicle with the 3.5 has an external pump. The F150 has an external water pump because the motor is facing front to rear and has room in front of it. All FWD (edge, explorer, flex etc) or AWD if you will has them built in.
 






I'm a real person! DF? I just feel super bad for all these people. I don't have a 3.5. I have a 2.5, and a bunch of mysterious issues going on with the cooling system in my own Fusion, and... AS SUCH, I was Googling around while looking for answers to my own situation when I landed on a couple of threads where people were looking at almost 10k in repairs on practically new vehicles because the lovely internal water pumps fail without warning - at any mileage - ruining the engine with it. I was just trying to help since Ford seemingly SH!TS ON MOST EVERYONE WITH THE INTERNAL WATER PUMP ISSUE. THEY FIND WAYS TO WIGGLE OUT OF REPLACING THE MOTOR, BUT IT'S NOT PART OF THE MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE TO REPLACE THE PUMP EVERY x.. MILES. SMH.

I'm real. I don't know any of the attorneys suing Ford. I didn't even read the name on the link I shared. I read until it said something about contact our offices if you had this issue, and immediately copied the link for sharing. I'd hate to be driving a ticking time bomb. Imagine having to pay someone to change an internal water pump every 30-40k miles in an attempt to be proactive. GOD FORBID YOU DON'T, AND LOSE A WHOLE CAR IN THE PROCESS WITHOUT A WARNING. That's a pricey, and UNNECESSARY repair. FORD DESERVES A SUIT FOR THAT SILLY A$$ DESIGN.

A "plug" for an attorney this post feels like, hmmm?

A failed water pump could cause the vehicle to overheat and damage engine? Ya don’t say.

A water pump could fail without warning? Ya don’t say.

A replacement engine could cost thousands? Ya don’t say.

It can cost thousands to replace the water pump? I agree, that is ridiculous.

What they should be touting is that a failed water pump could leak coolant into the engine oil and cause internal damage.
 






I'm a real person! DF? I just feel super bad for all these people. I don't have a 3.5. I have a 2.5, and a bunch of mysterious issues going on with the cooling system in my own Fusion, and... AS SUCH, I was Googling around while looking for answers to my own situation when I landed on a couple of threads where people were looking at almost 10k in repairs on practically new vehicles because the lovely internal water pumps fail without warning - at any mileage - ruining the engine with it. I was just trying to help since Ford seemingly SH!TS ON MOST EVERYONE WITH THE INTERNAL WATER PUMP ISSUE. THEY FIND WAYS TO WIGGLE OUT OF REPLACING THE MOTOR, BUT IT'S NOT PART OF THE MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE TO REPLACE THE PUMP EVERY x.. MILES. SMH.

I'm real. I don't know any of the attorneys suing Ford. I didn't even read the name on the link I shared. I read until it said something about contact our offices if you had this issue, and immediately copied the link for sharing. I'd hate to be driving a ticking time bomb. Imagine having to pay someone to change an internal water pump every 30-40k miles in an attempt to be proactive. GOD FORBID YOU DON'T, AND LOSE A WHOLE CAR IN THE PROCESS WITHOUT A WARNING. That's a pricey, and UNNECESSARY repair. FORD DESERVES A SUIT FOR THAT SILLY A$$ DESIGN.


Calm down. Your first post was about a lawsuit and comment about an attorney’s contact info. That does “smell” like a troll or plug for an attorney. Sorry for making that mistake.

All the other parts of my post are accurate. A water pump can fail on any engine at any time and cause it to overheat, that’s what the attorney post stated. I did agree that the cost to change the water pump is ridiculous, but what they should be promoting is that the water pump could fail, causing internal damage to the engine unbeknownst to the driver until it’s too late.

If the water pump fails and the engine overheats, you will(or should) get a warning on the dash indicating overheating and shut it down as quickly as possible. That goes for any vehicle.
 






Unfortunately, that's not always the case. I read on some forums where the driver didn't have an overheating issue. The car simply shut off, and all the lights illuminated. Upon inspection at some random Ford dealership where the vehicle was towed, it's then discovered the water pump took out the engine. There was no warning for any of the affected. There's no service schedule to say this can happen, and owners should proactively replace the water pump every XX miles. In some instances, it appeared as though the water pumps were leaking internally prior to failure, and by the time you discover you've lost coolant, it's already too late. Some owners reported that they got an overheating warning, pulled over immediately, and it was already too late. One person's car had only 4300 miles when the dealer suspected an internal leak. 4300 miles. When the dealer called Ford, they had no water pumps available, possibly for 6 months, and they were instructed to drive until the engine died. A lot of these forums predicted by about this time, you'd see a massive incline in Ford vehicles with dead engines. This isn't new, and a similar incident occurred with another automaker. Ford simply doesn't care. It's a mess all around, and there's no way I would ever buy a ticking time bomb that requires a water pump every XX miles, and still not be assured that would make a difference in the longevity of my vehicle. It's unfathomable to me.

Calm down. Your first post was about a lawsuit and comment about an attorney’s contact info. That does “smell” like a troll or plug for an attorney. Sorry for making that mistake.

All the other parts of my post are accurate. A water pump can fail on any engine at any time and cause it to overheat, that’s what the attorney post stated. I did agree that the cost to change the water pump is ridiculous, but what they should be promoting is that the water pump could fail, causing internal damage to the engine unbeknownst to the driver until it’s too late.

If the water pump fails and the engine overheats, you will(or should) get a warning on the dash indicating overheating and shut it down as quickly as possible. That goes for any vehicle.
 






Unfortunately, that's not always the case. I read on some forums where the driver didn't have an overheating issue. The car simply shut off, and all the lights illuminated. Upon inspection at some random Ford dealership where the vehicle was towed, it's then discovered the water pump took out the engine. There was no warning for any of the affected.

Correct.

In some instances, it appeared as though the water pumps were leaking internally prior to failure, and by the time you discover you've lost coolant, it's already too late.

Correct again.

Some owners reported that they got an overheating warning, pulled over immediately, and it was already too late.

Well, I did state that if the engine overheated, they'd get a warning. I didn't say that it wasn't already too late.


The paragraph on the site said a failed water pump could cause the engine to overheat and fail, that could happen to any liquid cooled automobile engine(it could happen to my 89 mustang with an external pump). They should reword it is what I'm saying. The water pump could start to leak and cause internal damage or engine failure without the operator knowing.

Yes, it's a bad design. They should have the water pump somehow segregated from the engine coolant so if it does leak, it leaks externally not into the lubrication system.
 






Unfortunately, that's not always the case. I read on some forums where the driver didn't have an overheating issue. The car simply shut off, and all the lights illuminated. Upon inspection at some random Ford dealership where the vehicle was towed, it's then discovered the water pump took out the engine. There was no warning for any of the affected. There's no service schedule to say this can happen, and owners should proactively replace the water pump every XX miles. In some instances, it appeared as though the water pumps were leaking internally prior to failure, and by the time you discover you've lost coolant, it's already too late. Some owners reported that they got an overheating warning, pulled over immediately, and it was already too late. One person's car had only 4300 miles when the dealer suspected an internal leak. 4300 miles. When the dealer called Ford, they had no water pumps available, possibly for 6 months, and they were instructed to drive until the engine died. A lot of these forums predicted by about this time, you'd see a massive incline in Ford vehicles with dead engines. This isn't new, and a similar incident occurred with another automaker. Ford simply doesn't care. It's a mess all around, and there's no way I would ever buy a ticking time bomb that requires a water pump every XX miles, and still not be assured that would make a difference in the longevity of my vehicle. It's unfathomable to me.

There is no way that Ford stated to a customer to drive it until the motor blew. 0% chance.. sorry, don't buy that... everything you read on the net isn't fact. There may be backorders on pumps but 6 months.. again, no way. It would fall under lemon law after 30 days which would then result in a buy back.

And just an FYI.. the reason the water pumps fail internally is when the bearing inside goes out. Any other failure will cause the coolant to leak externally through the weep hole.
 






I don't always believe what I read on the internet, but the consumer went to the forum BECAUSE OF THE BAD ADVICE, with the story being fact checked by a Ford tech on the water pump lack of availability. The dealer said because the car was new, if a failure occurred, Ford would warranty the issue. Yet, that statement is what led the consumer to seek help. They felt that if they did do such, then Ford would ultimately place the blame on them, even though they were unable to produce a pump for the vehicle.

There is no way that Ford stated to a customer to drive it until the motor blew. 0% chance.. sorry, don't buy that... everything you read on the net isn't fact. There may be backorders on pumps but 6 months.. again, no way. It would fall under lemon law after 30 days which would then result in a buy back.

And just an FYI.. the reason the water pumps fail internally is when the bearing inside goes out. Any other failure will cause the coolant to leak externally through the weep hole.
 






Many times there is not warning with this engine design incorporating a water pump internal to the block until it's too late. Why, because it can be a slow leak of antifreeze, which contains glycol, into the oil which can cause severe problems. It took about one minute to find an article on the topic of antifreeze/coolant/glycol mixing with oil in an engine:

"Few things are more damaging to an engine than coolant mixing with the oil. Coolant can enter the oil by many avenues and is very hard to find, until it is too late.

Ask most enthusiasts how to identify water in their oil and the most common response is a brown-milky appearance. Enough water in motor oil may turn it brown and milky. More often this is NOT SO with coolant in today’s oil. Modern oils contain detergent and dispersants and great damage may be done, before we notice any outward appearance.

Moisture in normal operation

All engine oil is contaminated with trace amounts of water in normal operation. The heat and cool cycles allow moisture to form in the crankcase. Detergent and additives in the engine oil, pick this up and hold it in suspension, helping to prevent a sludge build up. When the oil temperature reaches 212 degrees Fahrenheit, the water boils and turns to steam. The positive crankcase ventilation or PCV system draws the moisture out and helps prevent problems. With vehicles not driven far enough to reach full temperature, this may not occur. This is why driving only short trips requires more frequent oil changes.

Problems with coolant in the oil

Engine coolant is a combination of some form of glycol and water. Glycol presents several problems when mixed with engine oil. First is, it does not boil away, like water. Instead, it forms organic acids, thickens the oil and reduces its dispersancy. Depleted oil no longer contains the soot from combustion and sludge soon develops. Acid attacks the metal components in the engine producing corrosion and debris.

Increased viscosity does not flow properly, reducing lubrication and the oil filter plugs up. Engineers design oil filters to bypass when anything restricts them. A bypassing oil filter allows debris to flow through and engine failure is not far behind.

Recognizing the symptoms of glycol in engine oil

An early warning is the loss of engine coolant. They seal all modern cooling systems and losing coolant is NOT normal. When the coolant level drops, a problem exists and quickly finding the cause helps prevent more damage."

I speculate that the 3.5 duratec engine was put into the Explorer mainly for gas mileage standards and competition from SUV competitors there able to get more miles per gallon, and as mentioned partially due to engine compartment constraints. With that said, they had no problem in previous generations with fitting 4.0 and 5.0 liter engines, but gas mileage was less. I realize this is a new body design, but I believe they could have easily tweaked it to fit the engine in from front to rear, not that difficult. I also think gas mileage drove Ford to utilize a unibody design with lots of aluminum used through the vehicle.

Having a water pump inside the engine block is a very poor design IMO, especially with negligible mention of maintenance mentioned in the maintenance manual up to 150,000 miles. When an external water pumps fail, more times than not it's easy to detect with absolutely no danger to engine from glycol mixing with oil and they are easily replaced for reasonable price. Failure of both external and internal water pumps can cause the engine to overheat, but again, the real danger of the internal water pump is slow leak of antifreeze into the oil. It should be noted as mentioned above that the cooling system is a close system where the vehicle owner should only see negligible losses of antifreeze over time.

The current generation of Explorers is still fairly young, but I anticipate that this issue will only grow over time because many people that have owned Explorers in the past are accustom to owning them with low to moderate maintenance costs over lots of time and miles. Because the popularity of this current Explorer generation, Ford will generate lots of revenue replacing both water pumps and engines IMO. It will probably hit the 2nd and 3rd owners of an Explorer vs the initial buyer or owner.

I've mentioned many potential options that I believe Ford should look into from some sort of cost tiered approach for replacing this $40 part as well as putting out a TSB that would retrofit some sort of sensor in the plastic coolant tank so that the owner would know they are losing too much coolant too quickly. Perhaps another idea would be for Ford to put out a TSB with some sort of sensor that could detect glycol in the engine oil so that it is caught before catastrophic damage to the engine.
 






Many times there is not warning with this engine design incorporating a water pump internal to the block until it's too late. Why, because it can be a slow leak of antifreeze, which contains glycol, into the oil which can cause severe problems. It took about one minute to find an article on the topic of antifreeze/coolant/glycol mixing with oil in an engine:

"Few things are more damaging to an engine than coolant mixing with the oil. Coolant can enter the oil by many avenues and is very hard to find, until it is too late.

Ask most enthusiasts how to identify water in their oil and the most common response is a brown-milky appearance. Enough water in motor oil may turn it brown and milky. More often this is NOT SO with coolant in today’s oil. Modern oils contain detergent and dispersants and great damage may be done, before we notice any outward appearance.

Moisture in normal operation

All engine oil is contaminated with trace amounts of water in normal operation. The heat and cool cycles allow moisture to form in the crankcase. Detergent and additives in the engine oil, pick this up and hold it in suspension, helping to prevent a sludge build up. When the oil temperature reaches 212 degrees Fahrenheit, the water boils and turns to steam. The positive crankcase ventilation or PCV system draws the moisture out and helps prevent problems. With vehicles not driven far enough to reach full temperature, this may not occur. This is why driving only short trips requires more frequent oil changes.

Problems with coolant in the oil

Engine coolant is a combination of some form of glycol and water. Glycol presents several problems when mixed with engine oil. First is, it does not boil away, like water. Instead, it forms organic acids, thickens the oil and reduces its dispersancy. Depleted oil no longer contains the soot from combustion and sludge soon develops. Acid attacks the metal components in the engine producing corrosion and debris.

Increased viscosity does not flow properly, reducing lubrication and the oil filter plugs up. Engineers design oil filters to bypass when anything restricts them. A bypassing oil filter allows debris to flow through and engine failure is not far behind.

Recognizing the symptoms of glycol in engine oil

An early warning is the loss of engine coolant. They seal all modern cooling systems and losing coolant is NOT normal. When the coolant level drops, a problem exists and quickly finding the cause helps prevent more damage."

I speculate that the 3.5 duratec engine was put into the Explorer mainly for gas mileage standards and competition from SUV competitors there able to get more miles per gallon, and as mentioned partially due to engine compartment constraints. With that said, they had no problem in previous generations with fitting 4.0 and 5.0 engines, but gas mileage was less. I realize this is a new body design, but I believe they could have easily tweaked it to fit the engine in from front to rear, not that difficult. I also think gas mileage drove Ford to utilize a unibody design with lots of aluminum used through the vehicle.

Having the water pump inside the engine block is a very poor design IMO, especially with negligible mention of maintenance mentioned in the maintenance manual up to 150,000 miles. When an external water pumps fail, more times than not it's easy to detect with absolutely no danger to engine from glycol mixing with oil and they are easily replaced for reasonable price. Failure of both external and internal water pumps can cause the engine to overheat, but again, the real danger of the internal water pump is slow leak of antifreeze into the oil. It should be noted as mentioned above that the cooling system is a close system where the vehicle owner should only see negligible losses of antifreeze over time.

The current generation of Explorers is still fairly young, but I anticipate that this issue will only grow over time because many people that have owned Explorers in the past are accustom to owning them with low to moderate maintenance costs over lots of time and miles. Because the popularity of this current Explorer generation, Ford will generate lots of revenue replacing both water pumps and engines IMO. It will probably hit the 2nd and 3rd owners of an Explorer vs the initial buyer or owner.

I've mentioned many potential options that I believe Ford should look into from some sort of cost tiered approach for replacing this $40 part as well as putting out a TSB that would retrofit some sort of sensor in the plastic coolant tank so that the owner would know they are losing too much coolant too quickly. Perhaps another idea would be for Ford to put out a TSB with some sort of sensor that could detect glycol in the engine oil so that it is caught before catastrophic damage to the engine.

Please provide the link for proper copyright credit when you post full paragraphs/articles.
 












My 2014 Explorer sport was in the shop for 2 days this week for the water pump replacement. Vehicle has 88,000km on it. The symptoms I had was little to no heat while at idle (say at a stop light). At idle you could squeeze the upper rad hose which had no pressure in it. The water pump is in the timing chain cover behind the alternator. It's a double seal system with weep drain holes in between. If the pump seal fails, the coolant level will drop and you will see engine coolant tricking out of this hole. The mechanic had me put on the yellow glasses with a UV light and sure enough you could see coolant all over the engine in this area. If the other seal goes, the one going into the engine area then oil will come out this same weep hole. I assume if "both" seals go then coolant can get into the engine, contaminate the oil and lead to complete engine failure.
I guess I got lucky and only the one seal failed, leaking coolant but no coolant in the oil.
It's a big expensive job. Dealer showed me on the computer listed at 13.5hrs labor (there's a lot a **** to take apart to get at it).
The pump was only around $80 but then there are other parts such as seals, gaskets, engine coolant system flush ect...
Basically $2000 + taxes ($CDN) if I was out of warranty.
I can still buy an extended warranty before my 100k km powertrain warranty ends. It's looking quite attractive lately.
So far with this vehicle I've had 2 other major repairs which if were out of warrant were $2k each.
 






Found this youtube video illustrating the water pump location, how it connects into the engine and how much work it is to get to it. It's for a 3.5L older model edge but basically the same engine.
 






My 2014 Explorer sport was in the shop for 2 days this week for the water pump replacement. Vehicle has 88,000km on it. The symptoms I had was little to no heat while at idle (say at a stop light). At idle you could squeeze the upper rad hose which had no pressure in it. The water pump is in the timing chain cover behind the alternator. It's a double seal system with weep drain holes in between. If the pump seal fails, the coolant level will drop and you will see engine coolant tricking out of this hole. The mechanic had me put on the yellow glasses with a UV light and sure enough you could see coolant all over the engine in this area. If the other seal goes, the one going into the engine area then oil will come out this same weep hole. I assume if "both" seals go then coolant can get into the engine, contaminate the oil and lead to complete engine failure.
I guess I got lucky and only the one seal failed, leaking coolant but no coolant in the oil.
It's a big expensive job. Dealer showed me on the computer listed at 13.5hrs labor (there's a lot a **** to take apart to get at it).
The pump was only around $80 but then there are other parts such as seals, gaskets, engine coolant system flush ect...
Basically $2000 + taxes ($CDN) if I was out of warranty.
I can still buy an extended warranty before my 100k km powertrain warranty ends. It's looking quite attractive lately.
So far with this vehicle I've had 2 other major repairs which if were out of warrant were $2k each.

You would have to buy a used vehicle ESP, not the new vehicle as you are outside of your bumper to bumper. Just more expensive and an inspection is required.
 






You would have to buy a used vehicle ESP, not the new vehicle as you are outside of your bumper to bumper. Just more expensive and an inspection is required.
I believe he is still under the factory warranty. In both cases he mentioned costs if he was out of warranty.

Peter
 






I believe he is still under the factory warranty. In both cases he mentioned costs if he was out of warranty.

Peter

He mentioned he could still buy an ESP before his 100k powertrain expires which converts to the 60k powertrain in the US. Either way, it is more money when outside of the bumper to bumper warranty because it is a Used Vehicle ESP.
 






My 2014 Explorer sport was in the shop for 2 days this week for the water pump replacement. Vehicle has 88,000km on it. The symptoms I had was little to no heat while at idle (say at a stop light). At idle you could squeeze the upper rad hose which had no pressure in it. The water pump is in the timing chain cover behind the alternator. It's a double seal system with weep drain holes in between. If the pump seal fails, the coolant level will drop and you will see engine coolant tricking out of this hole. The mechanic had me put on the yellow glasses with a UV light and sure enough you could see coolant all over the engine in this area. If the other seal goes, the one going into the engine area then oil will come out this same weep hole. I assume if "both" seals go then coolant can get into the engine, contaminate the oil and lead to complete engine failure.
I guess I got lucky and only the one seal failed, leaking coolant but no coolant in the oil.
It's a big expensive job. Dealer showed me on the computer listed at 13.5hrs labor (there's a lot a **** to take apart to get at it).
The pump was only around $80 but then there are other parts such as seals, gaskets, engine coolant system flush ect...
Basically $2000 + taxes ($CDN) if I was out of warranty.
I can still buy an extended warranty before my 100k km powertrain warranty ends. It's looking quite attractive lately.
So far with this vehicle I've had 2 other major repairs which if were out of warrant were $2k each.

In summary your Explorer had 54,681 miles on it or 88,000 kilometers when the water pump failed. Am I correct in saying that there was no indication of the water pump failing or coolant leaking from the temperature gauge or dash warning lights? It appears that the only warning or indication that you had was because the outside ambient temperature was cool and you needed to use the heater, but the heater did not produce warm air. I also agree that you were lucky, you had 50/50 chance of one of two seals leaking and in your case it was not the seal that would have allowed coolant into the engine oil. Because you were lucky the repair cost $2,000 CD or $1,525 USD vs if the other seal had failed it would have cost around $7,000 USD or $9,167 CD for a new engine, but fortunately you were covered by your warranty.

It also sounds like whether the inner or outer seal fails, the coolant level will drop. I think this could easily be classified as a safety issue and hope that someone at the corporate level of Ford is really thinking about a recall/fix for this issue. This issue can happen with very little warning and leave someone or family stranded in a warm or cool climate far away from a service area. As stated in a post above:

“I've mentioned many potential options that I believe Ford should look into from some sort of cost tiered approach for replacing this $40 part as well as putting out a TSB or recall that would retrofit some sort of sensor in the plastic coolant tank so that the owner would know they are losing too much coolant too quickly. Perhaps another idea would be for Ford to put out a TSB with some sort of sensor that could detect glycol in the engine oil so that it is caught before catastrophic damage to the engine.”

The actual cost of a water pump on RockAuto ranges from about $25 to $64, hence the reason I’ve referred to it in the past as a $40 part.
 






I had same problem at 90,000 the water pump is in the engine which is a new design the water pump leaked antifreeze destroying the engine
 






I had same problem at 90,000 the water pump is in the engine which is a new design the water pump leaked antifreeze destroying the engine
Welcome to the Forum John.:wave:
Sorry to read about your issue. Did you try to see if there was any financial help available?

Peter
 



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I had same problem at 90,000 the water pump is in the engine which is a new design the water pump leaked antifreeze destroying the engine

This is the sole reason I will not keep this generation of Explorer into high mileage. It’s a high stakes gamble, if the outside seal of the water pump fails, then it’s only a water pump replacement that will cost around $1,500 to $2,500, or worst case the inside seal fails that causes the engine to seize, about $7,000.

The only way I would keep the Explorer into higher mileage is if Ford takes ownership for this very poor design and puts out a TSB or recall that would retrofit some sort of sensor in the plastic coolant tank so that the owner would know they are losing too much coolant too quickly and/or a TSB with some sort of sensor that could detect glycol in the engine oil so that a failed water pump could be detected before catastrophic engine damage.
 






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