More ethanol....nice :(

[IZwack]

Ethanol would stand no chance in a free market.

Most US citizens wouldn't stand a chance either - as a true free market would open the borders and grant illegal immigrants the same treatment as citizens.
"What's good for big business is good for the people" - this means borders must be permeable in order for big business to take advantage of the cheaper labor immigrants provide.
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[SoNic67]

Yeap, labor would be cheap. And the same quality as in their countries. Eventually everybody would make less money and produce crappy things because nobody would have money to buy nice things and made of good materials, corporations will make less money and try to cut costs even more...
And in a few years, US will become exactly like those contries with "cheap labor".

Oh, wait, that's happnening already!!!

 

[blueka]

I'm gonna stick to coal....


Si

 

[IZwack]

Yeap, labor would be cheap. And the same quality as in their countries. Eventually everybody would make less money and produce crappy things because nobody would have money to buy nice things and made of good materials, corporations will make less money and try to cut costs even more...
And in a few years, US will become exactly like those contries with "cheap labor".

Oh, wait, that's happnening already!!!

Exactly, because of the deregulation. This is one of the main reasons why the economy is in the state it is in today. Regulation and governance, in the long term, increases the standards of living. Without governance and regulation, the economy suffers severe "mood" swings - which is where we are at today. Governance and regulations are like "capacitors" in the circuit, buffering any sudden changes (like a financial collapse, or an unsustainable inflation rate) in the system. China will suffer a similar collapse in the future, mainly because of the unregulated and unsustainable growth rate and the finite amount of resources available.

 

[SoNic67]

I grew in a VERY regulated economy - a real socialist one. Lasted 50 yers till they run out of other people money. Eventually we did end up with food rations (like two eggs a week, 300 grams of sugar pe rweek, 2 pounds of meat per month, one bread per two days...), wait time for a crappy car was 5-7 years, wait time for a color TV 3-4 years... We had money in the bank but nothing to buy. Black market and coruption flourished. And nobody was unemployed, great, no?

Jeez, nobody learns from history.

PS: And no private person could own a SUV (or similar) vehicle. Government decided that we don't need it. And no new cars - one in lifetime is enough. My dad had the same car from 1974 to 2004.

 

[BobWiersema]

I grew in a VERY regulated economy - a real socialist one. Lasted 50 yers till they run out of other people money. Eventually we did end up with food rations (like two eggs a week, 300 grams of sugar pe rweek, 2 pounds of meat per month, one bread per two days...), wait time for a crappy car was 5-7 years, wait time for a color TV 3-4 years... We had money in the bank but nothing to buy. Black market and coruption flourished. And nobody was unemployed, great, no?

Jeez, nobody learns from history.

PS: And no private person could own a SUV (or similar) vehicle. Government decided that we don't need it. And no new cars - one in lifetime is enough. My dad had the same car from 1974 to 2004.

Exactly.

"They’ve got the usual Socialist disease — they’ve run out of other people’s money." - Margaret Thatcher 1975

"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher 1976

 

[rego]

So we should subsidize ethynal because if we don't we would have to open our borders?

 

[IZwack]

I thought I was talking about regulating business practices - not public affairs.

And as for the direct connection between ethanol and borders - please reread the thread.
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[SoNic67]

Once they started "regulating", sky's the limit. It's like a drug. They feel that by regulations, they proove that they are MUCH smarter than the "cattles" that they drove.

 

[celly]

My truck runs like crap with ethanol enhanced fuel and my mileage suffers. Luckily it's not mandatory where I live but when I visited Wisconsin last summer (also going there for Xmas), but truck really suffered.

 

[techieman33]

The problem isn't the ethanol, it's the corn they make it with.

 

[waskly]

i'm kinda of lazy to find links but ethanol energy can be higher then gas, depending of what grain its made from.

the draw back is they want to back corn grain.

 

[imp]

The problem isn't the ethanol, it's the corn they make it with.

Please, could you explain this a bit more fully? So, ethanol is not all bad, but the corn used to make it somehow makes it bad?

imp

 

[techieman33]

Please, could you explain this a bit more fully? So, ethanol is not all bad, but the corn used to make it somehow makes it bad?

imp

The corn makes it more expensive to produce. The starch from corn has to be converted to sugar before it can be fermented and turned into ethanol. In brazil it's made from sugar cane, so it's a much more efficient and cheaper process.

 

[imp]

i'm kinda of lazy to find links but ethanol energy can be higher then gas, depending of what grain its made from.

the draw back is they want to back corn grain.

Chemically speaking, ethanol is ethanol, unless it has some **** in it left over from the stuff containing the sugar which originally made it. The process, fermentation, which produces ethanol from sugar, cannot make 100% ethanol; it always has water in it. Very expensive (and unnecessary) to remove ALL the water to get 100% eth., which is not required to burn it as fuel. The high octane rating of it means it burns slower than typical gasoline, in fact slower than pure octane, which arbitrarily is given a rating of 100. Slower burning means less likelihood of "pre-ignition", or ping, or "knock". Slower burning, unfortunately, also means less overall power out of the mix, since the faster the work is done, the greater the power developed.

For my part, ethanol is most wonderful because it is the only easily-made, burnable, solvent and cleaner liquid which we can also DRINK! It does me more good that way, than in my gasoline! imp

 

[IZwack]

Once they started "regulating", sky's the limit. It's like a drug. They feel that by regulations, they proove that they are MUCH smarter than the "cattles" that they drove.

My point is this, gasoline is regulated and subsidized (which I had to bring up since Bob mentioned ethanol being subsidized in reply #15). If one detests regulation, then I hope he/she was not complaining when gas was going for $4.50 or so a gallon - price gouging, big oil will do it if left unchecked/unregulated. And subsidizing a product that is made here in the plains of the midwest makes much more sense than subsidizing a product of which over 2/3 has to be shipped (literally, on a ship) from overseas.

As for ethanol "gumming" up, it is not the ethanol itself thats gumming up. It is a solvent and reacts to some substances, including some O-ring materials. Ethanol is not for old cars that's still has 20 year old O-rings. This whole ethanol conversion thing is pretty much like that R134 vs R12 refrigerant conversion - and I hope we're not still complaining about that conversion, are we?

 

[BobWiersema]

I thought I was talking about regulating business practices - not public affairs.

And as for the direct connection between ethanol and borders - please reread the thread.
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What?......................


Sorry.....

 

[IZwack]

What?......................


Sorry.....

More like:

 

[gmanpaint]

Agreement:

Finding another fuel source to break away from foreign oil dependence.
Using ethanol as a stepping stone towards making that a reality.
Thinking "out of the box" to make an alternative fuel a reality is needed.
Burning ethanol in vehicles so equipped to use it as an alternative.

Disagreement:

Corn based fuel as a replacement or additive is just a band-aid.
Foreign oil purchasing / We have more than enough natural resources already in our own backyard. Gov has blocked us from using it. Are we better or worse for helping other countries exploit their natural resources? For anything to truly matter for the environment, it needs to be a global effort, correct? Thinking the world will follow our lead is simply naive on a grand scale.

Forcing the John Q Public at large to use it. / Don't we get to vote on it?

Vehicles not equipped to burn alcohol based fuels will result in huge problems.

Turning our farmers into corn planters only to sell to the Gov regulated industry. / We need these fertile lands for food, not for gasoline providers.
How much corn / acreage, does it take to produce 1 single gallon of fuel?

A stepping stone is used for greater, much larger things to come. Once the larger thing happens the stepping stone is thrown away. / Using a stepping stone as a foundation, will result in catastrophic damage. / We have clinical trials for drugs that last 2 full years before they can be used for public consumption. If it don't work, it is thrown away. If it does work, we still have a choice to use it or not.

When a more viable source comes along, where does this leave the farmers that has retro fitted to plant, harvest cheap, inedible corn only? What condition is the soil after a decade of this farming? / Arguing that this is what we have now (corn) and waiting for another source to replace it is useless, as this is garbage from the start.

This is just a political move. Washington is playing poker with OPEC, and the public is the banker with their livelihood in the cash pot. Lobbyist of this movement have trained Psychologist help make their pitch. Wolves and lambs are abundant, sheepdogs are scarce.

It is what it is. Plain wrong.

 

[SoNic67]

Just drill locally, don't be scard of treehuggers...

Menwhile, research for finding hydrogen safe storage sollutions. Then we can use atomic energy to make hydrogen and our hydrogen cars will be exhausing water.