Water pump failure leads to dead engine

[Sixonemale]

Based on the apparent millions of 3.5 liter vehicles on the road as shown below this cannot possibly be a design flaw. If this was a problem Ford would be repairing scores of these vehicles under their ESP. My dealer offers a no charge 100,000 mile power train warranty that if this was other than an occasional occurrence they would be going broke, replacing water pumps / engines.

2011 -2015 Explorer production(which had the (Duratec engines) was 900,000 not counting Police Interceptors or any of the other vehicles listed below. My guess is over half would have the 3.5 versus the 4 cylinder. If even 5% of the water pumps failed that would be thousands and thousands of vehicles, no way. You would have lawyers all over the country fighting for class action status.

Edge 2007-
Explorer 2011 -
Flex 2009 -
Fusion Sport 2010 -
Taurus 2008 -

Lincoln:
MKS 2009 -
MKT 2010 -
MKX 2007 -
MKZ 2007 -

Mazda:
CX-9 2007 -

Mercury:
Sable 2008 -

From a consumer web site with a law firm involved, the post is on this web page is dated March 5, 2014:

"Ford Water Pumps. Owners/lessees and certain prior owners/lessees of Ford vehicles containing a Duratec 35 engine should be aware of a potential safety defect relating to the water pump in the cooling system. If the water pump fails, the engine can overheat. Often, this occurs without warning. Significant overheating can cause engine failure, with engine replacement costing thousands of dollars. Also, it can cost thousands of dollars to replace just the water pump because it is located in the engine’s interior. This problem has the potential to affect all model year 2007-2014 Ford vehicles containing a Duratec 35 (3.5 liter) engine, including: 2007-2014 Ford Edge, 2007-2010 Lincoln MKX, 2007-2014 Lincoln MKZ, 2008-2014 Ford Taurus, 2008-2009 Ford Taurus X, 2008-2009 Mercury Sable, 2009-2004 Ford Flex, 2012-2012 Ford Fusion Sport, and 2011-2014 Ford Explorer."

My guess is that Ford will change this water pump/engine design soon.

 

[peterk9]

Curious as to why the 2014 Lincoln MKT isn't on the list.

Peter

 

[Enough2]

Results

So I am wondering what the results have been for those of you who may have had this water pump repair done. Is your car still running? If so, how many miles/years has it been? If not, how long before your engine locked up? Your insight would be VERY helpful and appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[Kpwweb]

Peter, As you've stated you lease your cars and barely drive them, which is good for you in regard to reliability, etc. I have been on one of the Lexus forums for years and to me there is a stark difference in regard to reliability and build quality of their cars that are 2-5 years old.

You obviously have not had a toyota 3.0 head gasket failure, or a toyota 5.7 starter issue, or a toyota starter relay issue, or ... The list goes on and on. Look them up.

Point is everyone has issues--it's just the ones you can live with that determines your happiness. I was a Toyota guy and drank the koolaid, until I had troubles with them to. Same trouble as other makes had! At roughly the same mileage. Toyota (and Lexus) have been living on a perceived reputation gained by marketing long ago...

 

[Junkmann2]

Point is that we are discussing Fords in this forum, not Toyota. I could give a rats a** about Toyota's, Chevrolets, etc. I come to this Ford forum to learn about and discuss Fords. I see your post as nothing more than a diversionary tactic to take the spotlight off of a Ford problem.
Yes, every car manufacturer has problems, but as far as Ford owners are concerned, it is my opinion that they only care about those issues that effect their cars, and they finances.

 

[bigdude2468]

Exactly what problem are you referring to? If you are talking about maybe three water pumps out of hundreds of THOUSANDS of Explorers then lets proceed. This is not going to ever cross the threshold as a pattern failure

 

[Kpwweb]

Point is that we are discussing Fords in this forum, not Toyota. I could give a rats a** about Toyota's, Chevrolets, etc. I come to this Ford forum to learn about and discuss Fords. I see your post as nothing more than a diversionary tactic to take the spotlight off of a Ford problem.
Yes, every car manufacturer has problems, but as far as Ford owners are concerned, it is my opinion that they only care about those issues that effect their cars, and they finances.

Toyota was brought up not by me, but by others. Am I interested in this issue? Sure, I have a 2013 EXP Sport (look at my sig), but when people start talking class action and the like, they should know their facts first. No diversionary tactic (except yours).

Thank you for your diatribe...

 

[sheltonfilms]

From a consumer web site with a law firm involved, the post is on this web page is dated March 5, 2014:

"Ford Water Pumps. Owners/lessees and certain prior owners/lessees of Ford vehicles containing a Duratec 35 engine should be aware of a potential safety defect relating to the water pump in the cooling system. If the water pump fails, the engine can overheat. Often, this occurs without warning. Significant overheating can cause engine failure, with engine replacement costing thousands of dollars. Also, it can cost thousands of dollars to replace just the water pump because it is located in the engine’s interior. This problem has the potential to affect all model year 2007-2014 Ford vehicles containing a Duratec 35 (3.5 liter) engine, including: 2007-2014 Ford Edge, 2007-2010 Lincoln MKX, 2007-2014 Lincoln MKZ, 2008-2014 Ford Taurus, 2008-2009 Ford Taurus X, 2008-2009 Mercury Sable, 2009-2004 Ford Flex, 2012-2012 Ford Fusion Sport, and 2011-2014 Ford Explorer."


My guess is that Ford will change this water pump/engine design soon.

Change water pump to timing chain and it is essentially every vehicle being built today.

If the timing chain fails,........ Often, this occurs without warning. This failure can cause severe engine damage, with engine replacement costing thousands of dollars. Also, it can cost thousands of dollars to replace just the timing chain because it is located in the engine’s interior.

This is not a defect. Ford understands that a water pump can leak and fail. That is why they built in a weep channel to the exterior of the engine behind the alternator.

I saw this thread before I bought my Ex. I just see it as something to keep an eye on.

 

[bigdude2468]

Class action? not hardly enough failures to even think about that.

 

[Sixonemale]

So I am wondering what the results have been for those of you who may have had this water pump repair done. Is your car still running? If so, how many miles/years has it been? If not, how long before your engine locked up? Your insight would be VERY helpful and appreciated.
Thanks!

A very valid question for an overly complicated and expensive repair of a $40 water pump. I hope you receive some answers.

What many fail to realize is that this water pump, a $40 part, is embedded into the engine block and if it fails it can cause catastrophic engine damage as some have experienced without fair warning. And yes, timing chains do fail, but can generally last a long time, sometimes the life of the engine. Timing belts on the other hand generally require replacement at about 90,000 miles and at this time the water pump is also replaced, therefore, limiting a potential catastrophic engine failure.

Most importantly, I would bet less than 5% of the owners of this engine design post on forums and of those less than 5%, most look after their engines better than most owners.

It should also be noted that in the maintenance guide for this engine that goes up to 150,000 miles there is no mention of the water pump, therefore, insinuating it should last at least 150,000 miles. It only says to check cooling system at various intervals.

 

[blwnsmoke]

A very valid question for an overly complicated and expensive repair of a $40 water pump. I hope you receive some answers.

What many fail to realize is that this water pump, a $40 part, is embedded into the engine block and if it fails it can cause catastrophic engine damage as some have experienced without fair warning. And yes, timing chains do fail, but can generally last a long time, sometimes the life of the engine. Timing belts on the other hand generally require replacement at about 90,000 miles and at this time the water pump is also replaced, therefore, limiting a potential catastrophic engine failure.

Most importantly, I would bet less than 5% of the owners of this engine design post on forums and of those less than 5%, most look after their engines better than most owners.

It should also be noted that in the maintenance guide for this engine that goes up to 150,000 miles there is no mention of the water pump, therefore, insinuating it should last at least 150,000 miles. It only says to check cooling system at various intervals.

Although many of the members on forums are enthusiasts about their vehicles and want to learn as well as educate others on issues, when a major failure happens, many do come to the forums.

That is exactly why you see a lot of first time posters posting about their issue. It's because when hit with a major repair bill, they google the issue to see if anyone else has had the issue and then join the forum to post about their issue.

This is exactly why we hear a lot more complaints then positive threads on any vehicle forum.
It is no different then the Power Steering issue, Shift to Park issue or the APIM issue.. so many people joined the forum because of these issues that they experienced.

And as far as the "it should last at least 150k", I agree with you. But I can say that for many parts of a vehicle... it should but there will never be a part that has a 0% failure rate. Parts BREAK... we've had 2 or 3 people with a water pump failure on this forum. This isn't an issue someone should be concerned about... and if you are so worried about it, buy a 150k ESP and then don't worry about it.

I've got 92k on my Explorer now with a 125k ESP. I may extend it right before it expires for another 24k if we don't sell it for another Explorer or Edge Sport.

 

[Sixonemale]

Although many of the members on forums are enthusiasts about their vehicles and want to learn as well as educate others on issues, when a major failure happens, many do come to the forums.

That is exactly why you see a lot of first time posters posting about their issue. It's because when hit with a major repair bill, they google the issue to see if anyone else has had the issue and then join the forum to post about their issue.

This is exactly why we hear a lot more complaints then positive threads on any vehicle forum.
It is no different then the Power Steering issue, Shift to Park issue or the APIM issue.. so many people joined the forum because of these issues that they experienced.

I agree that major problems cause "some" owners to Google problems and then become first time forum posters to learn from others who have encountered or solved the problem(s) they face. With that said, I don't think net is cast all that wide and far for others who have encountered major repair problems. More specifically, there are those who have no mechanical education and take what the dealer says as gospel. There are plenty of elderly folks who do not use the internet as well others who have chosen not do so, plus there are many others who don't even know where to start other than having the shop or dealer fix the problem.

In summary, I don't think we are seeing true sample population size of a potential design flaw in a car forum, there are still too many people who don't research or post.

 

[Repro77]

Up for air!

Well, my Explorer PI needs a new water pump, which is why I found this thread!

I noticed coolant, just a bit at first, just below the AC unit. Wiped it off, no big deal. Didn't leak again for about a month, and this time it was a large leak after a short drive. Found this thread, and was like "Uh oh!". Lucky for me it leaked outward, I guess.

Took it to Ford today, and yep, water pump. $110 part, $2,200 total. The girl told me that the engine has to come out to replace it. Nice engineering, fellas!

 

[sheltonfilms]

Up for air! Well, my Explorer PI needs a new water pump, which is why I found this thread! I noticed coolant, just a bit at first, just below the AC unit. Wiped it off, no big deal. Didn't leak again for about a month, and this time it was a large leak after a short drive. Found this thread, and was like "Uh oh!". Lucky for me it leaked outward, I guess. Took it to Ford today, and yep, water pump. $110 part, $2,200 total. The girl told me that the engine has to come out to replace it. Nice engineering, fellas!

Other vehicles it has to come out. The explorer shouldn't.

Video of a guy online doing the replacement on a flex, didn't pull engine.

Service manual doesn't even say to pull engine

 

[Repro77]

Other vehicles it has to come out. The explorer shouldn't.

Video of a guy online doing the replacement on a flex, didn't pull engine.

Service manual doesn't even say to pull engine

Ya, I talked to the shop foreman, and he said its up to the tech, but he says its easier to drop the motor and do it that way, and quicker he claims. I saw those vids on YT.

FYI, the water pump is on national back order, and they don't have any idea of when they can get one. Its on emergency order for mine...

 

[Sixonemale]

Up for air!

Well, my Explorer PI needs a new water pump, which is why I found this thread!

I noticed coolant, just a bit at first, just below the AC unit. Wiped it off, no big deal. Didn't leak again for about a month, and this time it was a large leak after a short drive. Found this thread, and was like "Uh oh!". Lucky for me it leaked outward, I guess.

Took it to Ford today, and yep, water pump. $110 part, $2,200 total. The girl told me that the engine has to come out to replace it. Nice engineering, fellas!

First off, I'm sorry to hear about your water pump failure, but am glad you caught it before it did catastrophic damage to your engine.

Could you please let all of us know some more information about your Explorer, such as how many miles are on it, etc.

I'm also somewhat surprised that it is on national back order, because if you look on Ebay they have plenty of them that range from $28 to $75 for a Motorcraft OEM water pump. Not sure where any of them are made, but I don't doubt most, if not all of them, are made in Mexico or overseas.

The more I started to think about this thread, my niece was driving her dad's 2008 Lincoln MKX in Santa Monica one afternoon a couple of years ago when I received a call, because at the time I lived near that area, that her car was smoking from the engine and I then drove there as quickly as I could. When it arrived at the dealer via a tow truck, the service advisor and I looked at the engine and noticed the coolant was nowhere to be seen and yes it was the water pump. I forgot completely about that incident. The Lincoln MKX had less than 50,000 miles on it, sad.

 

[Repro77]

First off, I'm sorry to hear about your water pump failure, but am glad you caught it before it did catastrophic damage to your engine.

Could you please let all of us know some more information about your Explorer, such as how many miles are on it, etc.

I'm also somewhat surprised that it is on national back order, because if you look on Ebay they have plenty of them that range from $28 to $75 for a Motorcraft OEM water pump. Not sure where any of them are made, but I don't doubt most, if not all of them, are made overseas.

The more I started to think about this thread, my niece was driving her dad's 2008 Lincoln MKX in Santa Monica one afternoon a couple of years ago when I received a call, because at the time I lived near that area, that her car was smoking from the engine and I then drove there as quickly as I could. When it arrived at the dealer via a tow truck, the service advisor and I looked at the engine and noticed the coolant was nowhere to be seen and yes it was the water pump. I forgot completely about that incident. The Lincoln MKX had less than 50,000 miles on it, sad.

My Explorer is a 2013 Interceptor Utility model, retired DRPS here in Canada. Despite the mileage, it drives excellent and idles so smooth, you have to check its running. It really is in great condition. They took great care of this one.

Having said that, it has 229,000 kms / 142,000 miles and 5500 idle hours, so its been used for sure, so I'm not surprised it failed. What I am surprised at is where the pump is, and the cost to replace a $100 part.

I'm going to confirm with Ford tomorrow that they are looking for the correct part number, as the one they gave me doesn't match what I see on fordparts.

 

[sheltonfilms]

My Explorer is a 2013 Interceptor Utility model, retired DRPS here in Canada. Despite the mileage, it drives excellent and idles so smooth, you have to check its running. It really is in great condition. They took great care of this one. Having said that, it has 229,000 kms / 142,000 miles and 5500 idle hours, so its been used for sure, so I'm not surprised it failed. What I am surprised at is where the pump is, and the cost to replace a $100 part. I'm going to confirm with Ford tomorrow that they are looking for the correct part number, as the one they gave me doesn't match what I see on fordparts.

That's actually quite impressive when you add the idle hours in.

You have to think 5500 x 25 mph average= roughly another 140k miles.

So it sounds like you can get 250k miles out of it. That is like replace springs, body bushings, oil pump territory. The stuff that nobody usually gets to.

 

[Sixonemale]

My Explorer is a 2013 Interceptor Utility model, retired DRPS here in Canada. Despite the mileage, it drives excellent and idles so smooth, you have to check its running. It really is in great condition. They took great care of this one.

Having said that, it has 229,000 kms / 142,000 miles and 5500 idle hours, so its been used for sure, so I'm not surprised it failed. What I am surprised at is where the pump is, and the cost to replace a $100 part.

I'm going to confirm with Ford tomorrow that they are looking for the correct part number, as the one they gave me doesn't match what I see on fordparts.

Since you are paying huge amount for labor you may want to check into what else can be replaced with ease for just the price of a part(s) since the engine will be pulled.

According the maintenance manual there is nothing listed about replacing the water pump up to the 150,000 mile limit in the manual. Ford should really consider helping out those owners who's water pump fails before the 150,000 miles. Perhaps with a tiered approach:

If the water pump fails before 50,000 miles and is out of warranty - $500

If the water pump fails before 100,000 miles - $1,000

If the water pump fails before 150,000 miles - $1,500

This assumes maintenance was done properly and does not take into account cost of living differences based on geography. Sure Ford takes a loss, but that's a small price to pay for a poor design.

 

[Repro77]

Yep, its done. They replaced the timing chains, crank seal, and spark plugs while they had it out, in addition to my failed water pump.

There is a special place in hell for whoever designed this engine...

Here it is!