02 Mountaineer, timing chain chatter, low oil pressure

[deaconblues]

Seeking opinions/options, 4.6L V8. Vehicle has been running very well, always running high-quality synthetic oil at 5K change intervals. Timing chain has always been a little noisy, esp. when cold, but hasn't been a problem for at least 70K miles. Now at 197K miles.

Yesterday, it threw a low-oil pressure warning, and I pulled over promptly into a parking lot and killed the ignition. The low-pressure warning went away as I used some throttle to park, but reappeared at idle before shutoff. I could hear a new clattering sound that seems to be coming from the timing gear. We towed it home at that point. Restarted it briefly cold today, and oil pressure (idiot indicator) read ok, timing chain still noisy. Let it warm up a little at idle and got the low pressure warning again, and again shut down promptly. Still idling smoothly.

I'm assuming guides/tensioners are original (PO has no records of this service), so doing some research, my guess is that I've gone through the guide nylon, aluminum, and now the tensioner(s) to the point where it is losing pressure especially when the oil is thinner at operating temp.

I called a few shops, at this mileage no one wants to work inside this motor. Swaps for used or reman run 3.5-7.5K (7.5 K for 100,000 mi warranty Ford reman). We still like the car a lot, but not sure it's worth doing this swap. I'm thinking I never ran it to the point of damaging crank or cam bearings, and it hasn't jumped time as smoothly as it still runs. Thinking of going ahead and pulling the timing cover and doing the guides/tensioners (but not the chain/sprockets?). I'm a little concerned that after all that I might still have to figure out how to drop the oil pan and clean the pickup if guide material is in there and causing low oil pressure (have to drop the front diff?).

Worth doing on this motor, or a serious waste of time (and $)? Not crazy about the prospect of doing this job, but I can't get a shop to do it. Car is really clean otherwise, transmission shifts perfect (with o-ringed servos installed), trans oil just serviced, looks perfect.

 

[07gtman]

if you are the original owner and the service/maintenance has been been kept in check.then go for it. weigh the options how much for a new or used car. Buying a used car not sure what you will get. or 6 years of payments with a new car..

 

[silverfox103]

Like you, I think, it would be tough for me to turn my back on your Mountaineer. I think I would do the repair job. The value of your car isn't going to be any different now than after I repair job that won't fix the issue. You'd probably be out $5 or $6 hundred dollars.

But with your good service history, I'm guessing you'll be able to fix. Probably a good chance the screen is clogged with debris as you said.

Good Luck

Tom

 

[Hugh Janus]

$235 to fix it (including sprockets). You can back flush the oil pickup from the oil filter adapter. Beg/borrow/buy one those cheap inspection cameras before you mess around trying to remove the oil pan.

 

[mendy]

Could be the oil pump is worn if it's given low pressure at idle.

You can change the tensioners and guides easy enough without having to pull the motor out
What's a recoed exchange motor worth? At least that way you get a warranty should it play up again

 

[deaconblues]

Is an oil pump due for replacement at ~200K miles? Does the motor have to come out to replace it? I think this engine has a good reputation for longevity, but I am at 200K after all. Any other weak items to expect needing replacement at this mileage (besides timing guides -water pump)? This would be my consideration to decide on a motor swap.

Thinking of pulling the timing cover off tomorrow (way too cold today and other honeydews to fix), you all are making me think it is at least worth that step. Or is it smarter to try to find out what's in the oil pan first? I don't have a hoist, so to even get the oil pan out, wouldn't I have to drop the front diff (and there's a crossmember too?) I like the camera idea to look at the pickup screen. If someone remembers what the opening to the oil pan from the timing cover area looks like -is it possible to get the camera in that way, and might it be possible to get a vacuum hose in through there to clean out debris, and is it effective enough to try to flush the pickup through the oil filter adapter (compressed air)? Thanks in advance for sharing the benefit of your experiences.

 

[mendy]

my 4.6 crapped out at 260000kms.
In Australia noting is cheap for an explorer. 2-3k for a second hand engine that's got 200k km on it
As I said before what's a rebuilt exchange 4.6 worth and loan a hoist for a few days to swap the engine over

 

[rocco123]

Just tear into it. Many posts here on how to do it all. Any questions, just ask.

 

[drdoom]

I would think you can get the camera in through the large gap at the pan where the timing cover mounts. Plus obviously you will be looking right at the timing components.

 

[drdoom]

A couple tips I picked up here, make a cardboard shield for the radiator. Make certain you get the large washer out after you remove the crankshaft bolt...that has tripped up a couple of us here, myself included. Special tools: harmonic balancer puller, power steering pulley tool, fan clutch tool. Replace the sprockets if you want, usually not necessary. YMMV. Best wishes.
Doc

 

[deaconblues]

Thanks. Am about to order the Cloyes kit 9-0387SHX. The fitment guides say this wrong for my application, but this seems to be the same as the recommended 9-0387SGX, but with the iron tensioners. Any know of a problem with the kit with the iron tensioners?

 

[rocco123]

My cloyes kit had metal tensioners and that's what I needed. Went together with no problem

 

[deaconblues]

Thanks Rocco -Do you happen to know if that is the same part # that I was going to order (9-0387SHX)? thanks.

 

[rocco123]

Thanks Rocco -Do you happen to know if that is the same part # that I was going to order (9-0387SHX)? thanks.

I don't recall

 

[deaconblues]

question for any who have done this job- if doing only guides and tensioners, do you have to remove the valve covers?

 

[mendy]

Yes you will to take off the front timing cover

 

[deaconblues]

Ok, I think this chapter is finished. This weekend I pulled the timing cover and found both tensioner guides worn completely through with the chains riding directly on the tensioner pistons and chain worn thru the plastic in most places so that the chain was riding on the aluminum backing. The passenger side was much worse than the driver side -the plastic guide was missing, completely in pieces all over the inside of the timing cover and in crevices elsewhere in front of the engine. The driver's side plastic guide looked completely intact. There were metal shavings and ground up plastic everywhere.

The chains and sprockets looked like they were in perfect condition, so I did not pull the valve covers. The front two bolts on each valve cover have to be removed for the timing cover to be removed. I replaced all the guides and tensioners with Cloyes 9-0387SHX, which has the cast steel tensioners like the damaged ones I removed (the Mountaineer isn't listed as an application for this part number, but the one that is includes phenolic tensioners that have the failure prone gasket seal and are non-ratcheting). I shop vac-ed all the plastic and metal bits that I could. Reassembling was a little tricky because the valve covers were left on, but is possible by loosening the front valve cover bolts and lifting the covers just enough so the timing cover slides in underneath the valve cover gaskets. Maybe it was foolish to do it this way, but it saved a lot of time and potential issues disconnecting all the wiring to the coils and injectors and breaking the clips holding wiring to the valve cover bolt studs, and other stuff that gets disconnected to remove the valve covers.

After reassembly, the engine fired up fine and ran very smoothly, but when at hot idle, the low oil pressure light came back (even with new oil/filter), going away quickly at higher rpm. I was cautious not to run the engine in this state for any length of time.

This job already borderline over my head, I didn't feel like I had the equipment/skills to lift the engine or drop the front suspension to remove the oil pan to clean the pickup. Called several shops all of which quoted me around 6 hrs. labor to perform this service. One shop I noticed had an oil flush machine, which supposedly back flows oil and air to flush the screen. I asked how much pressure was applied in this process, which is about 20 lbs. they said. I was skeptical that this was enough to unplug everything, so I asked if they would connect the shop air to the filter adapter to blow out the pump/screen at 90psi. They said no, but I found out later that they ended up doing it, and found ground plastic and metal coming out in the oil, and still flying out with just air. Apparently a dramatic amount of material was blasted out the oil plug this way (I didn't witness it myself). They kept blasting until no more material was being ejected.

With another fresh oil change, the oil pressure light now never comes on, and the motor runs smoother than at any other time I have had it, like buttah. I will do another oil change in a couple weeks. We'll see how long it lasts....

I thank everyone who responded on this thread, and shared info elsewhere on the forum, couldn't have gotten it done otherwise...

 

[imp]

Ok, I think this chapter is finished. This weekend I pulled the timing cover and found both tensioner guides worn completely through with the chains riding directly on the tensioner pistons and chain worn thru the plastic in most places so that the chain was riding on the aluminum backing. The passenger side was much worse than the driver side -the plastic guide was missing, completely in pieces all over the inside of the timing cover and in crevices elsewhere in front of the engine. The driver's side plastic guide looked completely intact. There were metal shavings and ground up plastic everywhere.

The chains and sprockets looked like they were in perfect condition, so I did not pull the valve covers. The front two bolts on each valve cover have to be removed for the timing cover to be removed. I replaced all the guides and tensioners with Cloyes 9-0387SHX, which has the cast steel tensioners like the damaged ones I removed (the Mountaineer isn't listed as an application for this part number, but the one that is includes phenolic tensioners that have the failure prone gasket seal and are non-ratcheting). Reassembling was a little tricky because the valve covers were left on, but is possible by loosening the front valve cover bolts and lifting the covers just enough so the timing cover slides in underneath the valve cover gaskets. Maybe it was foolish to do it this way, but it saved a lot of time and potential issues disconnecting all the wiring to the coils and injectors and breaking the clips holding wiring to the valve cover bolt studs, and other stuff that gets disconnected to remove the valve covers.

After reassembly, the engine fired up fine and ran very smoothly, but when at hot idle, the low oil pressure light came back (even with new oil/filter), going away quickly at higher rpm. I was cautious not to run the engine in this state for any length of time.

This job already borderline over my head, I didn't feel like I had the equipment/skills to lift the engine or drop the front suspension to remove the oil pan to clean the pickup. Called several shops all of which quoted me around 6 hrs. labor to perform this service. One shop I noticed had an oil flush machine, which supposedly back flows oil and air to flush the screen. I asked how much pressure was applied in this process, which is about 20 lbs. they said. I was skeptical that this was enough to unplug everything, so I asked if they would connect the shop air to the filter adapter to blow out the pump/screen at 90psi. They said no, but I found out later that they ended up doing it, and found ground plastic and metal coming out in the oil, and still flying out with just air. Apparently a dramatic amount of material was blasted out the oil plug this way (I didn't witness it myself). They kept blasting until no more material was being ejected.

With another fresh oil change, the oil pressure light now never comes on, and the motor runs smoother than at any other time I have had it, like buttah. I will do another oil change in a couple weeks. We'll see how long it lasts....

I thank everyone who responded on this thread, and shared info elsewhere on the forum, couldn't have gotten it done otherwise...

@deaconblues Good for you! BTW, learned from an old, highly knowledgeable mechanic many years ago: oil pumps DO wear. Not wear out, but wear, to the point that when clearances (bearings) increase, lifter bores wear, etc., the wear in a high mile pump prevents as high a volume as when new, due to "leakage" within the pump. If you can, since you now seem to have gotten oil volume back up, measure the oil pressure with the oil good and hot. If you have say 20 psi or more, good to go. Less means a rough time for rod bearings, which depend on good pressure for good lubricity. imp

 

[deaconblues]

Thanks Imp. Forgot to mention -the shop hooked up an oil pressure gauge -now getting 28 lbs. at hot idle. I think that's enough, yes? I believe the idiot light warning goes off at 8 lbs. or so....

 

[07gtman]

glad to hear you, got this done, and thanks for posting back, and telling every one how you completed the task at hand..keep an eye on the valve cover for any leaks..