2013 Sport 3.5 EB Died in traffic cranks won't fire up

[savagefan]

That's what I did today to get to that O2 sensor as it is really on there. (Car needs brakes too). Leaving it for an overnight soak in PB blaster and gonna hit it and the turbo nuts with the torch tomorrow. I was holding off on this one until I got to buddy's shop but with the wheel off and lifted higher (Supported nicely too) I can get at it all. If necessary I'll take an air chisel to the turbo-Cat nuts as I have a new turbo and studs/nuts ready to go in. Lots of oil in the system and I'm sure much of it is in the CAC, big clean up job and hunting season is upon us. What I hope to do is soak the O2 sensors whilst doing the turbo, run them again until the oil is out of the system and then install new ones as these look like they've been in there a long time. Oh BTW what I thought was the MAF was just a temp sensor, this unit doesn't use MAF, silly me.

 

[mguy13sport]

If the turbo is junk you may want to put the car on a lift. There are really only two ways the rear turbo can be removed and then reinstalled.

First method: Drop subframe (just a few inches)

Second method: Remove the passenger axle (you will need to refill trans fluid)

Honestly I've never done this but I plan to use the second method when the time comes (I also have a new turbo ready). Both can be done in the driveway however you mentioned you had access to a lift and I would take advantage of that for this job. The access to the turbo sucks even with the axle removed.

Heres a thread that may help. I think this guy drop the subframe.

Rear turbo removal

Rear turbo removal

www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com

 

[savagefan]

Thanx mguy, I have the cat removed and soaking, the hoist would have been nice but a pricey tow would be needed and buddy is now swamped with seasonal tire change-overs so I'll do it at home and just keep plugging away until my 60 year old back tells me its time to stop. I think those o2 sensors must be OE, they were a bugger to remove on the bench vise even with heat and weasel p.- they are soaking in sea foam for the duration. With the inner fender off I'm tempted to replace the water pump and chains, I'll see how the turbo goes first I guess, with an unheated garage i may put that off until spring. We're getting a brief respite from winter so I don't think I should push my luck.

 

[savagefan]

Got the turbo out today. No need to drop the cradle or even remove the axle although I am going to remove it to put the new one back in as it gets in the way a bit too much.

 

[ecoboost_xsport]

Just throwing this out there...you are on a good path with your troubleshooting, so good work! I'm glad you corrected yourself on the MAF...as I was reading from the beginning of the thread, I kept saying..."why does he keep saying MAF? these vehicles are speed density....no MAF"...lol

As mentioned, wanted to suggest you pull the LPFP if you're other steps aren't working. I've run into this exact issue twice on others I've repaired. First one was a failed driver module. Its an easy $40 part and an easy component to swap out. The most recent one was a buddy of mine who's LPFP failed due to a lot of crap being in the tank. It just wouldn't pump enough. I had an extra Hellcat module I had modified laying around and the instant we plugged it in, it fired right up...although a new stock replacement pump would've worked too, I just didn't have one laying around at the time. We looked at the bucket and the pre-pump filter sock was coated with some sort of silt and the post-pump fuel filter looked completely packed full of crap.

Anyway, good job and hopefully you figure it out. Keep us posted...

 

[savagefan]

The fuel pump checked out fine, I screwed up when I tried hearing it run when the start button was pushed. It primes when you open the door. I popped the low pressure line and the pump flows good volume. Fuel rail pressure is well within spec. What I think happened was I didn't clean out the CAC after the first turbo failed . Oil contaminated the o2 sensors and the engine was running too rich. The new SP580 plugs were badly sooted up and the engine oil level rose from gasoline contamination. I'll try and get the rear turbo back in today although I am rather stiff from yesterday's workout. Fun fun fun.

 

[mguy13sport]

Was there any oil inside the turbo or cat converter?

 

[savagefan]

Yep, both oil soaked, I have them bathing in Palmolive, o2 sensors in Seafoam, will get new ones once this issue is sorted out. Turbo went in easy without removing the axle after all, happy there. It may be a chore to clean the CAC without removing it. Perhaps drill a 1/16" hole like the F150 boys do. Cleaned all the plumbing, gonna clean the spark plugs, change the oil again , get her set before start up.

 

[savagefan]

Ok car is back together nice and clean, 2 new turbos, cranks well, fires same as before dies within 20 secs or as soon as gas is depressed. Weak idle feels like an older car that is fuel starved but fuel rail pressure is good. No codes, I am stumped. Any ideas?

 

[mguy13sport]

You were first getting oxygen sensor codes that would come back after driving so how long did you drive it? Are you monitoring the catalyst status with Torque or ForScan?

I still suspect an issue with the down pipes

 

[savagefan]

It doesn't run long enough to throw a code I suspect. I didn't play with it much yesterday, I've run out of time for about a week or so. It really sounds like it is fuel starved but the one time I checked with "Torque" fuel rail pressure was within specs. Puzzled am I.

 

[ecoboost_xsport]

It doesn't run long enough to throw a code I suspect. I didn't play with it much yesterday, I've run out of time for about a week or so. It really sounds like it is fuel starved but the one time I checked with "Torque" fuel rail pressure was within specs. Puzzled am I.

I really like Torque as a gauge suite, however, I am dubious of it's response times. I never use it as an actual datalogging device as I have found the results don't match up to my SCT logs, which I trust way more (if it lends any credence, no serious tuning shop will use Torque Pro logs, either). They wouldn't be completely different, just different enough for me not to trust it with any serious degree of accuracy. Especially when you start adding too many PIDS, you lose resolution due to the nature of the low OBDII bandwidth capability as it starts polling very slowly through all the PIDs (OBD PIDs are the best to add as they don't take as much bandwidth as DMR PIDs).

I love using it as a very basic tattle-tell gauge suite ( https://www.fortheworkshop.com/?p=250 ) but it MAY be possible you're not getting completely accurate readings...simply a suggestion. If you have any other tuning device (SCT, HPTuner), I'd try and log that way. Not sure how you're time went with Forscan, but I would never recommend connecting any of these devices via Bluetooth (if you're looking for accuracy) as I've found there is some significant latency on occasion. Hard wire is always the best route, more direct. That being said, I am using my Torque Pro setup with BT, but again...it isn't being used for logging. I use my SCT, direct-wired, for that.

As for other issues...I'm still wondering if it's your LPFP, but I may be wrong. Have you tried swapping out the driver module? They are pretty cheap to buy. I understand if it isn't the issue, you are out-of-pocket, but may be a possible last troubleshooting effort. Or maybe find a friend with an ecoboost you can try their driver module out, they are easy to get to.

Anyway, just some suggestions. Hope you get it figured out, and keep us posted.

 

[savagefan]

I bought a new module from Ford, never installed it, bag unopened may return it. I jumped the four power wires in the harness, no go. I still believe there may be a problem with the low pressure side, is there a spec for the flow rate? or a way to test pressure>? The HP side reads well but the engine doesn't act like it. I have had a fuel pump go on another vehicle and it acted much like this one, I just want to make sure before I drop the tank and spend money.

 

[ecoboost_xsport]

I bought a new module from Ford, never installed it, bag unopened may return it. I jumped the four power wires in the harness, no go. I still believe there may be a problem with the low pressure side, is there a spec for the flow rate? or a way to test pressure>? The HP side reads well but the engine doesn't act like it. I have had a fuel pump go on another vehicle and it acted much like this one, I just want to make sure before I drop the tank and spend money.

If I'm correctly understanding what you've tried to do, jumping power wires is a no-go on the driver module, voltage going to the pump is pulse-width...not a traditional 12vdc signal. Unless you have a PWM simulator with the appropriate frequency (or an oscilloscope to test), you can't simply jump wires. The pump may "run" when fed 12vdc, but that doesn't mean it will "run" when the PCM/FPDM is commanding it. Simplest solution to isolate the driver as a non-issue is to replace it.

As for low-side pressure values, it flucuates. happy-place at WOT is anywhere above 80psi or so, but can drop down to around 40 at idle. It is all dependent on load...

 

[savagefan]

Ok thanks, I'll throw it in just in case, I did see a report on someone who had permanently jumped the module harness, 9A little hard on the pump and perhaps unsafe) but pump it did. I have a fuel pump on order but now it's time to go hunting, I'll get back on this car next week if it isn't too cold out there.

 

[ecoboost_xsport]

Ok thanks, I'll throw it in just in case, I did see a report on someone who had permanently jumped the module harness, 9A little hard on the pump and perhaps unsafe) but pump it did. I have a fuel pump on order but now it's time to go hunting, I'll get back on this car next week if it isn't too cold out there.

Permanently jumped the harness? Wow, so it would just be fed a constant 11-12vdc full time? Not sure how that would even work properly since these are returnless systems and how the PCM would even "see" the pump since it isn't getting proper feedback. Likely burn that pump up pretty fast and potentially destroy that 90psi pressure relief valve in the fuel bucket since it would easily exceed that pretty regularly being fed constant voltage, especially at the times there is no demand for such pressures...hmmm. I highly discourage that...

 

[mguy13sport]

I'm curious to see the solution for this.

You had mentioned previously fuel PSI at the rail was 1700psi under load. That is a pretty healthy fuel system IMO. At idle it should be in the 200s.

Have you tried running through the system test functions in ForScan? One of them will force high idle around 2400 and run a series of tests on the various systems (emission, cooling fans, etc). Obviously if your car only runs for 10 seconds this may not work but throwing it out there.

Also just have to ask for peace of mind .. when was the last time you filled up and what octane?

 

[savagefan]

mguy it wasn't under load, that was with the dying idle and really smelly exhaust like an old carbureted engine that was icing up/running too lean. I can't run any real tests on it until it runs period, the last times produced unburnt fuel which made a mess of everything. I really want it to fire up and burn some fuel on the highway, It is my son's car, he bought regular gas from the same place as usual about 2 days before it quit, I did ask him this. If the fuel is crap, my old RV with a carbureted 460 will burn it NP.

 

[savagefan]

Permanently jumped the harness? Wow, so it would just be fed a constant 11-12vdc full time? Not sure how that would even work properly since these are returnless systems and how the PCM would even "see" the pump since it isn't getting proper feedback. Likely burn that pump up pretty fast and potentially destroy that 90psi pressure relief valve in the fuel bucket since it would easily exceed that pretty regularly being fed constant voltage, especially at the times there is no demand for such pressures...hmmm. I highly discourage that...

So this is where I got the idea FWIW but I will replace the module anyway just because.

Bypass Fuel Pump Module - Ford Flex Forum

www.fordflex.net

 

[ecoboost_xsport]

So this is where I got the idea FWIW but I will replace the module anyway just because.

Bypass Fuel Pump Module - Ford Flex Forum

www.fordflex.net

Interesting, yeah, basically completely bypassed the Event Notification Signal and removing the restraint module from the equation, but more importantly running the pump at essentially 100% duty cycle. I can see how it was a great bush-fix to get him home. I wouldn't do it permanently though.

Anyway, good luck and fingers crossed its something simple.