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6R60 Torque Converter Lockup/1-2 Shift Quality Issues

Mode 6 On OBD2. For misfire data. Think its $82 if you scanner goes by pid
 



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Interesting that it won't start. I would not think the TCM would have that effect on PCM, it should start, maybe shifting would be out wack but the engine should be running. Keep us posted.
 






Got it started today. Most of the time the starter relay won't even click when you turn the key, sometimes it'll crank for a second then cut out, but I got lucky once and it cranked long enough to turn over. Transmission seems to behave the same as it did with the old tcm. Still no 1st, but it'll shift through the rest of the gears fine. Perfectly drivable.
Intermittent CEL with no pcm or tcm codes. Scanner seems to be reliably communicating with the tcm. Double checked the tcm connector, and it's fully seated. No issue with the gear lever position sensor either.
I tried starting it with the TCM unplugged and got the same no crank no click situation. Should it crank with the TCM unplugged? I'd think so.
 






follow up on my previous mention of COPs... only 6r60s 4.6L 3v 06-2010

this dude knows his **** too. tons of good content.
 






Appreciate the video @Tike Definitely gonna look into that.
Filled it with atf today. I was previously operating on the cold fill of ~3.5qts to get it started. Safe to operate it that way, per the service manual. But I have an appointment to have it programed tomorrow, so I filled it. No change in trans behavior.
Starting issue seems to be unrelated. The relay is clicking when the key is turned. There's a charging system issue. Seems like the battery is weak.
DTCs:
PCM-P0620 Generator control circuit
TCM-P0563 System voltage high
4x4M-B1317 Battery voltage high
ABS-B1676 Battery pack voltage out of range
When tested with the engine off the battery only read 12.2 volts. Didn't read it during jump start or with the engine running. Significant corrosion has formed on the positive terminal in just the past few weeks. Never failed to start or did any of this weird **** before I replaced the TCM a few days ago.
Hoping I can get this sorted out easily and quick. I'd imagine it would interfere with module programming. I need to check MSCAN codes. Smart Junction box is on there.
 






Appreciate the video @Tike Definitely gonna look into that.
Filled it with atf today. I was previously operating on the cold fill of ~3.5qts to get it started. Safe to operate it that way, per the service manual. But I have an appointment to have it programed tomorrow, so I filled it. No change in trans behavior.
Starting issue seems to be unrelated. The relay is clicking when the key is turned. There's a charging system issue. Seems like the battery is weak.
DTCs:
PCM-P0620 Generator control circuit
TCM-P0563 System voltage high
4x4M-B1317 Battery voltage high
ABS-B1676 Battery pack voltage out of range
When tested with the engine off the battery only read 12.2 volts. Didn't read it during jump start or with the engine running. Significant corrosion has formed on the positive terminal in just the past few weeks. Never failed to start or did any of this weird **** before I replaced the TCM a few days ago.
Hoping I can get this sorted out easily and quick. I'd imagine it would interfere with module programming. I need to check MSCAN codes. Smart Junction box is on there.

if you have a good scanner i would hook up and use mode 6 - individual cylinder mis fire test and look for any mis fires. cyl 8 on these Ex and ST is bad culprit as it sits right below the windshielf wiper cowl in such a way water and debris like to drip onto that coil.. i replaced it last year and apparently im having an issue again... also the COPs are pretty cheap on amazon. 45-55$ FoMoCo

best of luck with this
 






The water dripping on # 8 is indeed an issue on the v8 models.

#8 is the last one on the driver side closest to the firewall
 






The water dripping on # 8 is indeed an issue on the v8 models.

#8 is the last one on the driver side closest to the firewall
thank you for the correction!
 






High voltage codes were caused by jump starting.
Reprogramming at the Ford dealer didn't accomplish much. They didn't seem to know what the hell they were doing. They said it "shut off" the first two computers they tried to program it with, then told me it didn't have a tcm and the trans is pcm controlled. They got it programmed with a third computer, but it seems like they only reprogrammed the pcm. tcm seems to be on the same software it was before. I wish I had written it down so I could know for sure. Software version is dated 2008. I ordered a VCMII clone. Gonna try to do it myself.
Accessed mode 6 misfire data on Forscan. Reading 0 misfires for all cylinders. I find that sorta hard to believe.
Starting issue has gone away. Not sure if it was software related or not. Didn't do it for them at the dealer before or after programming.
I have noticed the 3-4 shift is delayed and sort of harsh sometimes. Particularly at low throttle input. That wasn't present before any of the trans work. Appeared after I installed the new valve body with old tcm, but is worse after installing the new TCM.
 






I also don't believe Forscan is showing correctly the misfires. I know I have one somewhere but mode 6 shows 0's on all 8. Or the threshold is set up to high by Ford.
And I would check for it right after a long trip where I felt it pretty significantly.
 






I also don't believe Forscan is showing correctly the misfires. I know I have one somewhere but mode 6 shows 0's on all 8. Or the threshold is set up to high by Ford.
And I would check for it right after a long trip where I felt it pretty significantly.

does the issue occur when OD/ is off?

can you check the ref wire Voltages for things devices like the tps or TC solenoid with an oscilloscope to make sure its steady 5v reference and not getting interference? ( im throwing darts at the wall here)

also going back and re-reading your forscan graphs, i was under the impression that the TCClutch on locks up when you are in 6th gear to match the trans to engine output shaft for efficiency reasons, not during 1-5 shifts. i am totally wrong about this?
 






does the issue occur when OD/ is off?

can you check the ref wire Voltages for things devices like the tps or TC solenoid with an oscilloscope to make sure its steady 5v reference and not getting interference? ( im throwing darts at the wall here)

also going back and re-reading your forscan graphs, i was under the impression that the TCClutch on locks up when you are in 6th gear to match the trans to engine output shaft for efficiency reasons, not during 1-5 shifts. i am totally wrong about this?
Checking ref wires isn't something I've thought of. I'm not sure if those are sensitive to interference.
The previously mentioned issue with the coils involves the CAN-bus wires. The thing to do to check for interference on those would be to check the wavelengths of the high&low CAN wires with an oscilloscope, which I don't have.
Seems like this is the principal of it:
can-voltage-levels.jpg

Six Ways from Sunday: Diagnosing ZF6 & Ford 6R60/80 TC-Related Drivability Concerns
This article says the TC clutch(TCC) can be applied as early as 2nd gear, and there is supposed to be no TC slip during shifts.
 






Got a knockoff vcmii which came with a bootlegged copy of IDS. All attempts at reprogramming have failed, and the TCM has stopped communicating with the PCM and scan tool. Doesn't respond during the network test. Plugged the old TCM into the harness and it responds to the scan tool, but still no luck programming. It starts and runs, but is in limp mode.
I'm so tired of ****ing with this thing. It's my daily driver too. Never buying another one of these.
 






Old TCM swapped back in, and I'm back to where I was before the new one stopped communicating. No first gear.
I'm thinking this is an electrical problem. I'm getting U1900 and other U codes from multiple modules, and there is heavy corrosion forming very quickly on the positive battery terminal. The battery isn't holding a charge well and needs replaced anyway.
 






random but whats your oil pressure n start up - idle - driving?
 






Noticed about a month ago that the TC doesn't cycle anymore. Can't say for sure what fixed it. Transmission has a new valve body, seals between the valve body and transmission case, fluid and filter. Original TCM. Didn't immediately fix the cycling, but after a few months of driving it slowly dissipated to nothing. Noticed it was gone right after replacing the battery, but dunno if that's actually what finally fixed it or not.
You can see from the graphs below that it seems to be behaving as designed. Violet line is TC slip.
Ko3hBwj.png

But, still no first gear. I've been driving this thing for months this way. As long as you keep it from attempting to shift into 1st by putting the gear selector in 2nd when coming to a stop, it does perfectly fine. It takes 5-10 failed 2-1 shift attempts in a single trip before it'll throw a code and put it in limp mode.
Not really thinking its an electrical problem anymore. I looked into it some and couldn't find any issues. I suspect the E clutch has somehow stuck on/off or something. This could have been verified by air checking the clutches one of the 3 times I had the mechatronic unit out, but for some reason I neglected to.
 






Still driving this thing like this. Having a very hard time getting motivated to crawl under it and take another ATF shower doing more diagnosis.
Not a single trans expert around here has any insight on this? I seem to be the only person on the planet with this issue.
 






Still driving this thing like this. Having a very hard time getting motivated to crawl under it and take another ATF shower doing more diagnosis.
Not a single trans expert around here has any insight on this? I seem to be the only person on the planet with this issue.

heavy rain here in PA 2 weeks ago. my truck was running fine. then i tried to drive it after sitting in the rain for about 60minutes. and it wouldnt idle right had to hold rpms at 2k till it warmed up then it idled fine... started driving it and started to feel like a mis-shift again. but low and behold i checked the misfire count and its misfiring again but underload it feels the TCC or trans not shifting.

 






I am far, far from being a transmission expert but I have had issues where misfires have made me think the transmission was going out. The effects of misfiring on my last Explorer, a V8 2002, had me absolutely convinced the transmission was gone. It turned out to be coils going bad. Thankfully I took it to an honest local transmission shop and they said this is quite common on rear wheel drive modular V8 Fords. I know this isn't the same transmission you have but the engine is similar. It seems that the transmission and engine electronic controls are so intertwined these days that one system can mess with another and send you on a wild goose chase trying to find problems that don't exist.

Edit:
One other thing I forgot to mention is that on the same Explorer there was another time I thought the transmission had died. While going down the interstate the vehicle slowed down abruptly and a god awful noise was coming from the transmission area. It sounded like the guts of the tranny was going through a metal shredder. I pulled over, had it towed to the previously mentioned transmission shop and they diagnosed it as having one or more clogged catalytic convertors. A new Y pipe with cats had it running fine. The transmission in it never gave me a minute's worth of trouble up to 116k miles at which point I sold it. I did fluid changes every 30k-40k miles so this was probably why. So these days I don't automatically assume that what ppears to be transmission problems is actually a transmission problem.
 



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Elite Explorer members see no advertisements, no banner ads, no double underlined links,.
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I am far, far from being a transmission expert but I have had issues where misfires have made me think the transmission was going out. The effects of misfiring on my last Explorer, a V8 2002, had me absolutely convinced the transmission was gone. It turned out to be coils going bad. Thankfully I took it to an honest local transmission shop and they said this is quite common on rear wheel drive modular V8 Fords. I know this isn't the same transmission you have but the engine is similar. It seems that the transmission and engine electronic controls are so intertwined these days that one system can mess with another and send you on a wild goose chase trying to find problems that don't exist.

Edit:
One other thing I forgot to mention is that on the same Explorer there was another time I thought the transmission had died. While going down the interstate the vehicle slowed down abruptly and a god awful noise was coming from the transmission area. It sounded like the guts of the tranny was going through a metal shredder. I pulled over, had it towed to the previously mentioned transmission shop and they diagnosed it as having one or more clogged catalytic convertors. A new Y pipe with cats had it running fine. The transmission in it never gave me a minute's worth of trouble up to 116k miles at which point I sold it. I did fluid changes every 30k-40k miles so this was probably why. So these days I don't automatically assume that what ppears to be transmission problems is actually a transmission problem.
-6 months later-
You offer useful insight, but I'm pretty positive my Mountaineer isn't misfiring. New coils and plugs. I've never felt a single stumble from it and the misfire monitors are all at 0.
Reverse and gears 2-6 work beautifully. If it were a misfire or CAN interference issue I would imagine there would be issues across the entire operating range of the transmission. I've looked at the electrical outputs from the TCM and it is activating the correct solenoids to engage 1st gear, but it binds up. I think the E clutch fluid circuit is screwed up and it's stuck either on or off, causing an internal drum/clutch/band/whatever bindup situation.
I'll never know because I'm selling this pile.
 






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