Are these 2 repairs related? Please help.

[1lowlude]

I'm going to try to be brief, but please feel free to ask...

So I had my Ford Explorer and for some warranty work about a month and a half ago they had to replace the output drive shaft seal because I smelled burning fluid which was diff fluid cuz I could tell by the smell.

We also had to replace the exhaust manifold and the catalytic converter, because it comes with a single unit, but it doesn't have anything to do with what I mean. So at the time, I had 97,000 kilometres, so I was well within my 100,000-kilometre powertrain warranty.

About a day or two after I get my car back I am calling ford service and tell them im still having the same issue so we tried to schedule to get it in two or three times but the way my schedule was working and Ford doesn't have anything else available I couldn't get it in so

4,190 km later the PTU blows up and cracked the casing in three places. it subsequently damaged the transmission. I had no drive reverse I had nothing the car would not move at all It just felt like the e-brake was on when you hit the gas but it wouldn't move an inch.

I send an email to the Ford service manager he calls me and says they were going to tow it in Great I even tell them how many kilometres because he asked me how many kilometres are on the vehicle i told them 101,493. So he said don't worry about it let's just get it in here which we did. Upon inspection of the PTU, they've come to find out for themselves that the whole PTU has to be replaced and the condition of the transmission is unknown until initial repairs are completed on the PTU. They want 18 sorry let's round off to 1900 for the replacement including the labour of the PTU.

They are telling me that I have to pay for all of it. I said wait a minute you guys were the last ones to be working on the PTU the last time the vehicle was in there. You guys changed the output shaft seal on the PTU which states on the work order. They even had a problem trying to get the CV axle out of the hub it was seized in the hub so it took a mechanic one and a half hours of extra time to free the CV axle. I remember they called me and told me they have to cut the Cv axle because it is seized in the hub I said okay whatever I guess if it seized there's no other way but at that time I have no idea the mechanic spent an hour and a half trying to get it out.

So when the PTU failed I got underneath the vehicle to have a look and I see a hole in the PTU part of the casing was gone. In that hole, I could see a crack in the bearing housing and it was cracked right through to the other side. I thought the mechanic was ****ing smashing the axle with a sledgehammer trying to free it from The hub for probably about an hour before he said I'm just going to cut it. My claim is negligence due to the mechanic guarguaranteeingwas hitting that axle trying to free it from The hub not knowing the amount of damage he was causing on the other end of the CV axle damaging the bearing housing. So the housing was cracked in a way that looks like impact cuz no way would have happened at least I don't think so.

There's no way when my mechanic was reinstalling the new output shot seal he didn't notice that the bearing housing cracked I find it very hard to believe so he either knew it was cracked or knew that he didn't want to get **** for it so just left it and put everything back together and kept it a secret to himself. Because not even a day or two later I'm already calling back saying I still have the problem.

So now we're going on over two weeks My car has not moved an inch in the parking lot at the dealership because I'm fighting with them that I am not paying a single penny because I believe the mechanic damaged the PTU bearing and by that bearing being broken it caused oil to leak out of the PTU and thus running it dry creating the seizure or the explosion that happened and subsequently damaging the transmission.

The funny thing is the last time my vehicle was in for repair the mechanic even stated on the notes for that particular repair that they had to replace the CV axle and hub because of the damage caused when trying to remove it. To me he just admitted damage.

So the dealership is saying that the problem now that I'm having with the PTU has nothing to do with the repair they did before.

Ford Canada takes the service tech's word for it because they told me that's what they do if that's what they're telling them.

So I want to hear everyone's opinion on my situation on whether they think the two are related and whether or not the dealership should be fixing the PTU and because subsequently damaging the transmission they're going to have to fix that as well.

At the time of the last repair, I had 97,000 roughly kilometres
I've only driven the vehicle for 4,193 KM since the last repair
I am now over the 100,000 powertrain warranty and I am currently sitting at 101,493 km
I did call two days later to let them know the problem was still happening.
According to the consumer protection act of Canada, I am within the 5,000 km warranty. For repaired parts but Ford offers a lifetime warranty on their parts or their repaired parts but again they're claiming it has nothing to do with the problem now.

I look forward to hearing some answers and some opinions from everyone on this matter because it seems to me that I'm going to be going to the arbitration process because I truly believe I'm right

Pic1- last visit repair order

Pic2- history of repair

Pic3- current estimate for PTU repair

 

[donalds]

Wow! long post

 

[FEMC]

Get Ford Corporate involved. They will work with the dealer and maybe u settle for 80 20 worst case. U pay 20 Ford pays 80%,

 

[1lowlude]

Get Ford Corporate involved. They will work with the dealer and maybe u settle for 80 20 worst case. U pay 20 Ford pays 80%,

I have. Their offer right now is that I pay 40%. To me as the consumer I feel that's a lot I have to pay, considering I brought it in for a leak and smell of gear oil burning. They failed to correct the problem. Oil leaked out completely from PTU output shaft seal thus causing complete failure of said part and subsequently damaging transmission. They didn't even road test the vehicle when I had it in for that last repair.

They mostly are complaining I'm out of warranty. But only by 1,493km. Which works out to 1.5%. That I would agree to pay out of my pocket but Im not sure if that makes sense.

Currently waiting on a couple attorneys to see what they think I should proceed.

But I'd still like to hear more opinions from you all if you don't mind.

Thanks guys

 

[Odrapnew]

In the original repair, they replaced the PTU seal because it was leaking, correct?
Did they have to drain the PTU fluid prior to changing the seal?
If so, why isn't new fluid listed?

 

[jmr061]

I have. Their offer right now is that I pay 40%. To me as the consumer I feel that's a lot I have to pay, considering I brought it in for a leak and smell of gear oil burning. They failed to correct the problem. Oil leaked out completely from PTU output shaft seal thus causing complete failure of said part and subsequently damaging transmission. They didn't even road test the vehicle when I had it in for that last repair.

They mostly are complaining I'm out of warranty. But only by 1,493km. Which works out to 1.5%. That I would agree to pay out of my pocket but Im not sure if that makes sense.

Currently waiting on a couple attorneys to see what they think I should proceed.

But I'd still like to hear more opinions from you all if you don't mind.

Thanks guys

If its dealer negligence that doesn't have anything to do with the warranty. If you are strictly looking at warranty IMO 100k means 100k. It ends there. You are responsible for 100 percent after that. Ford offering to pay anything is them going above and beyond. So at 150k by your reasoning they should still pay 50 percent...I don't think so. Time frames and mileages are strict. They have to be.

 

[peterk9]

..............................................

According to the consumer protection act of Canada, I am within the 5,000 km warranty. For repaired parts but Ford offers a lifetime warranty on their parts or their repaired parts but again they're claiming it has nothing to do with the problem now.

.............................................

Welcome to the Forum.
I wasn't aware of the 'lifetime' warranty on those parts, only the 24 month warranty on OEM parts. I did see however, that engine, transmission etc have a longer warranty but it didn't mention the timeframe on the Ford site I checked. Since the original repair didn't seem to have resolved the issue you had it in for at 97k km, you may have a case to have the work covered under the original warranty.
Good luck.

Peter

 

[Mbrooks420]

To get any kind of settlement you’re most likely going to need to tow it somewhere else for them to say the damage happened trying to remove the old CV.

 

[1lowlude]

In the original repair, they replaced the PTU seal because it was leaking, correct?
Did they have to drain the PTU fluid prior to changing the seal?
If so, why isn't new fluid listed?

Wow you are a great man! Didn't even realize that but it normally is listed that they refilled?

Anyone have a work order from Ford service showing oil refill??

Your awesome bro you just gave me more ammunition here. Appreciate it alot!

 

[1lowlude]

If its dealer negligence that doesn't have anything to do with the warranty. If you are strictly looking at warranty IMO 100k means 100k. It ends there. You are responsible for 100 percent after that. Ford offering to pay anything is them going above and beyond. So at 150k by your reasoning they should still pay 50 percent...I don't think so. Time frames and mileages are strict. They have to be.

I agree but I complained it still wasn't fixed 2 days after repair.

I'm only over warranty 1,493 kilometers and only 4193km since that last repair. I believe they just don't want to accept responsibility because they know the transmission gotta be replaced too. And corporate won't honour there mistake they're left paying outta their account. Not my problem though. Hire mechanics that know what there doing.

 

[1lowlude]

Welcome to the Forum.
I wasn't aware of the 'lifetime' warranty on those parts, only the 24 month warranty on OEM parts. I did see however, that engine, transmission etc have a longer warranty but it didn't mention the timeframe on the Ford site I checked. Since the original repair didn't seem to have resolved the issue you had it in for at 97k km, you may have a case to have the work covered under the original warranty.
Good luck.

Peter

I asked the service manager how long warranty on their replacement of parts are. He responded with lifetime warranty. Whether that's true or not I have no idea.


I've been stressing to them the same thing your saying. Problem is ford corporate takes the dealerships say . But with a few responses from you guys it gives me more to argue that I'm not responsible.

 

[1lowlude]

To get any kind of settlement you’re most likely going to need to tow it somewhere else for them to say the damage happened trying to remove the old CV.

I gotta exhaust all options at the dealer. So far service manager is firm, next I got general manager and if I have to the owner. If they all say I have to pay then that's when I take it to another dealership. I have to use every option at the dealer before I do anything else.

 

[boominXplorer]

The cv axle stuck in the wheel hub isn't related to put going bad.

The right axle seal which is on the ptu is a concern though. Why did the seal go bad? Was something already out of round or bushing going bad internally to make the seal leak? Normally I'd chalk some of these situations to bad luck but that leaking seal was probably a sign to a bigger issue since it blew up shortly after.

 

[1lowlude]

The cv axle stuck in the wheel hub isn't related to put going bad.

The right axle seal which is on the ptu is a concern though. Why did the seal go bad? Was something already out of round or bushing going bad internally to make the seal leak? Normally I'd chalk some of these situations to bad luck but that leaking seal was probably a sign to a bigger issue since it blew up shortly after.

Which is why I'm claiming the CV axle being seized in the hub is a concern and it's related to the PTU but only in the way of damage caused from the mechanic. My theory is the mechanic could not release the CV axle from The hub so he took a hammer and probably some sort of pin or some sort and started hammering on the axle to try and free it from The hub. So upon hammering the life out of this thing to try and get it or the hub the mechanic on knowingly has caused damage to the bearing inside the PTU. And that is what caused the PTU to fill catastrophically so fast. There is a TSB not specifically my year but there are tsbs on these PTU seals prone to leak and how to fix them so maybe they should add this year explore to their list because from what I've researched I'm not the only one that has had a leaky PTU issue but I cannot find a tsp for my exact year of vehicle. I'm only assuming that because of the amount of time spent trying to free the CV axle from The hub the mechanic stated on the work order which was 1.5 hours. So that is only time to free the hub from the axle. So what took so long in cutting it and then just replacing it with all new parts to me that should take 10 minutes I'll give him 20 minutes tops because I run torches all day long I know how fast it is to cut steel with an oxy acetylene torch and it's very fast and if you just replacing it with a new part that has nothing to do with the additional time spent removing as stated on their invoice. They can say anything they want but the problem is what they claim on the invoice is what matters. Because those are the mechanics notes from the repair they just did.

 

[boominXplorer]

Not that I want to defend the dealership but cv axle frozen in the hub is not the avenue you want to go down (I'll explain). You need to express concerns of why and how the seal on the ptu was leaking and how in such short time you have a ptu failure. Something was obviously missed by the tech / Something internal had caused that seal to leak.

At rest the cv axle has at least 1" of "float". That makes up for the differences while turning lock to lock and what not. Technically I can take your cv axle nut loose and bash that axle in at least 1" till the cv joints start to bind. I assure you if he got it to move a .5" he could of got it out unharmed. He probably cut the axle, removed the knuckle and popped out the wheel bearing. At this point the left over part would have slid nicely out of the ptu causing no damage or debris to the inside.

 

[1lowlude]

Which is why I'm claiming the CV axle being seized in the hub is a concern and it's related to the PTU but only in the way of damage caused from the mechanic. My theory is the mechanic could not release the CV axle from The hub so he took a hammer and probably some sort of pin or some sort and started hammering on the axle to try and free it from The hub. So upon hammering the life out of this thing to try and get it or the hub the mechanic on knowingly has caused damage to the bearing inside the PTU. And that is what caused the PTU to fill catastrophically so fast. There is a TSB not specifically my year but there are tsbs on these PTU seals prone to leak and how to fix them so maybe they should add this year explore to their list because from what I've researched I'm not the only one that has had a leaky PTU issue but I cannot find a tsp for my exact year of vehicle. I'm only assuming that because of the amount of time spent trying to free the CV axle from The hub the mechanic stated on the work order which was 1.5 hours. So that is only time to free the hub from the axle. So what took so long in cutting it and then just replacing it with all new parts to me that should take 10 minutes I'll give him 20 minutes tops because I run torches all day long I know how fast it is to cut steel with an oxy acetylene torch and it's very fast and if you just replacing it with a new part that has nothing to do with the additional time spent removing as stated on their invoice. They can say anything they want but the problem is what they claim on the invoice is what matters. Because those are the mechanics notes from the repair they just did.

I know a lot of you are very knowledgeable with material differences and breakage points and whatnot but bearing housing and also the bearing of course it's a hardened steel. Meaning it's very brittle and a sudden impact could shatter it into pieces or create a crack. A crack won't happen from normal wear and tear you may get a rounded oat section of the bearing but in the housing that holds the bearing seems to me that's very unlikely to happen.

Not that I want to defend the dealership but cv axle frozen in the hub is not the avenue you want to go down (I'll explain). You need to express concerns of why and how the seal on the ptu was leaking and how in such short time you have a ptu failure. Something was obviously missed by the tech / Something internal had caused that seal to leak.

At rest the cv axle has at least 1" of "float". That makes up for the differences while turning lock to lock and what not. Technically I can take your cv axle nut loose and bash that axle in at least 1" till the cv joints start to bind. I assure you if he got it to move a .5" he could of got it out unharmed. He probably cut the axle, removed the knuckle and popped out the wheel bearing. At this point the left over part would have slid nicely out of the ptu causing no damage or debris to the inside.

No believe me even if you are defending the dealership if that is the case and what you're saying then obviously I'm not going to rely on the CV axle being the cause of the problem I just thought that's what the mechanic did because he spent an hour and a half trying to free it so to get the axle out of the PTU he would have had to remove the wheel hub because the axle was used inside so you're right he could have just removed it all together with the CV axle still seized in the hub and put it on the bench try to free it that way so you're right that probably is not the route to go down so thank you for that that was a pretty damn knowledgeable response from you I must say and I didn't even think about that. So tell me about to email for corporate and I'm going to express major concern on why was the seal leaking in the first place but I also am going to mention that on the work order the last time I was there when they replaced the seal there's no mention of oil being refilled or drained for that matter from the PTU there's no mention anywhere on the work order of those two tasks.

There's no right or wrong opinion that is why I'm asking for opinions and this is the main reason why I ask around to get responses with people with different opinions and I appreciate everyone's opinion on my matter.

 

[peterk9]

The cv axle stuck in the wheel hub isn't related to put going bad.

The right axle seal which is on the ptu is a concern though. Why did the seal go bad? Was something already out of round or bushing going bad internally to make the seal leak? Normally I'd chalk some of these situations to bad luck but that leaking seal was probably a sign to a bigger issue since it blew up shortly after.

A leaking PTU was a somewhat common issue ion the first couple years of the 5th gen Explorer.

Peter

 

[boominXplorer]

A leaking PTU was a somewhat common issue ion the first couple years of the 5th gen Explorer.

Peter

Yes but it has been redesigned in 15 or 16 model year and the op has an 18 with only 100k kilometers. The seal issue and the failure are pretty close together

 

[1lowlude]

Well I fired off a nice email to the lady I've been doing with at Ford corporate office. I stressed many times about the seal leaking and mechanic should have spent at least half an hour to turn diagnose why the seal is leaking because it only has 100,000 km. Also brought up the fact about the mechanic not making any note of the drainage of the PTU oil and also it's not noted anywhere about oil being refilled so the seal may have been leaking and the mechanic may have very well fixed the leak but they failed to refill the PTU with oil I told you about how it needs oil to keep everything cool down and keep everything lubricated and without any oil if things would seize up causing an explosion inside the PTU which is very well been my case when it happened.

So now I'm sticking to breach of warranty and maybe I still have a negligence on behalf of the mechanic because of his failure to properly diagnose what was really going on and didn't care to investigate why the leak was happening.

Still appreciate all the responses and opinions I will keep going updated as to how they're going to proceed and handle my case hopefully I get an answer tomorrow that things are going to be covered 100% based on what I said to them so again I sit and wait on the edge of my seat..

 

[peterk9]

Good luck.