awd/4wd tcase on a 3rd gen theory

[guitarfrk741]

First i know i've asked this before..and i am in no way doubting the info that i've been given but ive been doing some research and please just hear me out..

i own a 3rd gen mounty.. 2wd..
now say i had the opportunity to get all the front axle/driveshaft/etc. (which will bolt on, i have checked the mounts) and possibly even the awd tcase..(which should also mount on).
i am nearly positive the awd conversion will work..

now say a 3rd gen 4wd tcase were made availableto me..
now i know these are electric shifting and blah blah computers make it nearly impossible to add on..so i'm thinking AROUND the electronic shifting part to leave out the computer

now this is where i start assuming,as i dont have a 4wd case to look at..but once you get past the shift motor ...shouldn't it look something like this?

if so i'm sure it's more than pheasable that a type of cable or other manual mechanism could be fabbed up to shift the case manually, bc if i understand correctly the turning of that shaft is what engages/disengages 4hi/lo?

also ,if i'm correct there are no sensors in the tcase (3rd gen)that are vital to anything except the controlling of the 4wd in itself, and at that they just send feedback to the control module so it can know when it is or isnt in 4wd



now thats just from what i've been reading and i am in no way an expert in this area...i just wanted to clearly present myself and am looking for opinions

 

[dogfriend]

Assuming that the 3rd gen case is a 4405 (which it appears to be in the photo) I agree that you could probably fab up something to shift the case from High Range to Low Range without using the electronic controls.

Unfortunately, the 4405 uses speed sensors and the GEM (generic electronic module) to determine when to engage the transfer case clutch. The 4405 is a Auto 4wd transfer case, so with no power to the TC clutch, it will stay in 2wd all of the time (search on Brown Wire Mod for more info). So you need the electronic control to send torque to the front wheels. The GEM does this by sending a PWM (pulse width modulated) signal to the TOD (torque on demand) relay which then sends current to the TC clutch to engage 4WD.

 

[guitarfrk741]

Assuming that the 3rd gen case is a 4405 (which it appears to be in the photo) I agree that you could probably fab up something to shift the case from High Range to Low Range without using the electronic controls.

Unfortunately, the 4405 uses speed sensors and the GEM (generic electronic module) to determine when to engage the transfer case clutch. The 4405 is a Auto 4wd transfer case, so with no power to the TC clutch, it will stay in 2wd all of the time (search on Brown Wire Mod for more info). So you need the electronic control to send torque to the front wheels. The GEM does this by sending a PWM (pulse width modulated) signal to the TOD (torque on demand) relay which then sends current to the TC clutch to engage 4WD.

see thats why this is getting into a grey area..
its a 4411 (or 4410..cant remember) tcase..

and not too many people have fooled around with these so i dont have too much info on it

 

[dogfriend]

I found this document:

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckBBAS/non-html/2002/exp24dcd.pdf

It says the 4410 is a 1 speed viscous coupling unit (full time 4wd)

It says the 4411 is a 2 speed on-demand electronically activated unit (Auto 4wd)

What I said above about the 4405 would also be true for the 4411. The only thing that may be different is the details of how the GEM and TOD relay are used, but you would still require electronic control for the TC clutch.

 

[gijoecam]

IIRC, the 44-11 is essentially a beefed-up 44-05, but the functions are nearly identical. Also, the ground for the transfer case clutch coil returns through the harness instead of utilizing a chassis ground as the 44-05 in the 2nd-gens does.

If you can come up with a way to manually select the range (shouldn't be too hard) the brown wire mod for the early 2nd-gens will be your ticket to locking the case. It does not necessarily need to be a PWM signal... a steady 12V 4A feed will do just fine.

Unfortunately in irder to do the swap, you will likely also need the transmission as the output shaft is different between the 2wd and the 4x4...

-Joe

 

[guitarfrk741]

Unfortunately in irder to do the swap, you will likely also need the transmission as the output shaft is different between the 2wd and the 4x4...

-Joe

is it really?
bc i figured that would be the case as well as a new rear driveshaft bc the length difference.. but i lookedunder it and theres actually what looks like a spacer bt the tranny and driveshaft (where the tcase goes) and it was spaced about right for tcase to squeeze in there..

i'll try to grab a pic


bc if itll fit with my current trans and work with the awd diff/shafts/etc...i just might be able to own the only 4x4 3rd gen mounty ever bc i've got some pretty good ideas on a mechanism to select my range

 

[gijoecam]

Just double-checked the exploded diagrams... it's definitely a different output shaft on the 4x4... So yes, the rear driveshaft could be reused with the 4x4, but the transmission would have to be either replaced, or completely rebuilt with the 4wd output shaft.

And how exactly would that make you the only 3rd gen 4x4 Mountaineer?? They made literally hundreds of thousands of them right from the factory...

Please also note that there is a difference between the all wheel drive transfer case and the automatic 4 wheel drive case. They are not the same and are not interchangeable.

Keep in mind that in addition to the trans and transfer case, you'd need the front axle, front driveshaft, front halfshafts, front spindles, hubs, brake rotors, and caliper anchor plates. It's also likely that they used heavier duty coils on the front suspension to compensate for the additional weight of the front axle, so you'd likely want those too.

Then there's also the whole 'cutting the hole in the floor' thing for the manual range selection on the transfer case, and you'd still be relying on the transfer case clutch coil to handle lockup.... THe question is: Why??? It'll never be worthwhile in the long run to convert over a 2wd to a 4x4 (Sold axle swaps, not-withstanding). Sell it and buy a 4x4 and be done with it.

 

[dogfriend]

Sell it and buy a 4x4 and be done with it.

What he said.

 

[guitarfrk741]

And how exactly would that make you the only 3rd gen 4x4 Mountaineer?? They made literally hundreds of thousands of them right from the factory...

there is no 4wd option for 3rd gen mounty's ..they're only offered in awd ..which is a 35/75 split and it uses a vicious clutch meaning you can't lock it..

Keep in mind that in addition to the trans and transfer case, you'd need the front axle, front driveshaft, front halfshafts, front spindles, hubs, brake rotors,

if i did go through with this i planned for those and would have those also available..not to mention the hubs,brake calipers and spindles are identical in 2wd/4wd models

Please also note that there is a difference between the all wheel drive transfer case and the automatic 4 wheel drive case. They are not the same and are not interchangeable.

that was one thing i was asking ..bc i was comparing the two and they looked nearly identical (the 4410 and 4411)

Why??? It'll never be worthwhile in the long run to convert over a 2wd to a 4x4 (Sold axle swaps, not-withstanding). Sell it and buy a 4x4 and be done with it.

i honestly wish i could..but its in my dad's name and he's not a big fan of me selling it to get a new truck..since he payed for it..

but trust me i've been trying haha

 

[gijoecam]

there is no 4wd option for 3rd gen mounty's ..they're only offered in awd ..which is a 35/75 split and it uses a vicious clutch meaning you can't lock it..


if i did go through with this i planned for those and would have those also available..not to mention the hubs,brake calipers and spindles are identical in 2wd/4wd models

Forgot it was an '02... My bad...

i honestly wish i could..but its in my dad's name and he's not a big fan of me selling it to get a new truck..since he payed for it..

but trust me i've been trying haha

But he'd be OK with assimilating a 4x4 drivetrain underneath it? Doubt it...

 

[guitarfrk741]

But he'd be OK with assimilating a 4x4 drivetrain underneath it? Doubt it..

yeah well thats what i would think too but for some reason he game me the o.k ...at least for the awd swap..

and looking at more pics of the tcases(awd vs 4x4) the input/outputs all look exatly the same and they appear to even have the same outer shell, or a damn near close one)

awd(4410)

4x4(4411)

also looked at exploded views to compare the other inputs and outputs(only of tcase not tranny)

Just double-checked the exploded diagrams... it's definitely a different output shaft on the 4x4

when you looked at the transmission shaft was that of a 2nd gen or a 3rd?bc you said you forgot i was in a 3rd gen and this may be my last obstacle

 

[gijoecam]

when you looked at the transmission shaft was that of a 2nd gen or a 3rd?bc you said you forgot i was in a 3rd gen and this may be my last obstacle

It was an '02. I'll post the pic when I get home, but the short version is that it's a different output shaft. Yes, the main housing for the two transmissions are the same. But the extension housing on the 2wd trans carries the extra length of the longer 2wd shaft. The 4x4 trans replaces the longer output shaft with the shorter shaft, and a separator plate for the extension housing.

If you want to know for sure, drop the driveshaft and pull the extension housing off. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about. You'll see that there's no way to attach the t-case to that transmission.

 

[guitarfrk741]

yeah i think i understand you now....
when i looked before i assumed the connection from the back of the tranny to the extension housing was identical to that of the 4wd models( splined like)
like this

but i'd like to see that pic your talking about if you dont mind

 

[gijoecam]

The two setups are different... shorter shaft on the 4x4, no extension housing, just basically a block-off plate.