Biodiesel powered Excursion vs. Prius

[cherrybomb]

I was curious about the difference in emissions between the two and did a little research and came up with some interesting results.

Check it out on my my new blog. Be kind, I'm just cutting my teeth on this whole blogging thing!

 

[dogfriend]

Have you looked at other pollutants like NOx? There was a discussion about Prius vs. small diesels like the VW TDI over on PriusChat. I think you are correct that CO2 is favorable for a diesel, but NOx is much higher.



I looked for a TDI Golf before I bought a Prius but did not buy one because:

1. They are not available new in Calif. I think we are at least a year away.

2. They are very hard to find used here. They were sold for a few years, but couldn't meet new Calif emissions, so they were discontinued here a few years ago.

3. Although the engines are very durable, the rest of the car is suspect for reliability.


I would like to have an F250 running on biodiesel to pull my trailer, but cannot afford it currently. If I had one, then I would still drive my Prius for most trips, but use the truck when I needed to haul something.

 

[IZwack]

Also, I think one of the biggest issues with biodiesel is availability. I'd love to run my tow rig on bio but the closest station is about 45 mins away.

I see your point though and I am all for biodiesel as it is almost carbon neutral (the process still consumes fossil fuel)

 

[Dopler174]

I wish for a diesel car so I could convert it. I have an over abundance of Grease from a small food chain that my cousin works at. I could smell bacon all day long...YUMMY.

 

[cherrybomb]

Have you looked at other pollutants like NOx? There was a discussion about Prius vs. small diesels like the VW TDI over on PriusChat. I think you are correct that CO2 is favorable for a diesel, but NOx is much higher.



I looked for a TDI Golf before I bought a Prius but did not buy one because:

1. They are not available new in Calif. I think we are at least a year away.

2. They are very hard to find used here. They were sold for a few years, but couldn't meet new Calif emissions, so they were discontinued here a few years ago.

3. Although the engines are very durable, the rest of the car is suspect for reliability.


I would like to have an F250 running on biodiesel to pull my trailer, but cannot afford it currently. If I had one, then I would still drive my Prius for most trips, but use the truck when I needed to haul something.

Yeah NOx is a very good point, and one I thought of. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any hard science on the emissions of biodiesel with regard to NOx. I'm actually hoping to follow up that post with more information on NOx if I can find it.

I agree about the VW TDI's, they are great, but nearly impossible to find in Cali, and aren't known to be extraordinarily high quality cars. ;-)

Again, it's not a silver bullet, or a perfect solution for everyone, but it's certainly a lot better than most might think.

 

[cherrybomb]

Also, I think one of the biggest issues with biodiesel is availability. I'd love to run my tow rig on bio but the closest station is about 45 mins away.

I see your point though and I am all for biodiesel as it is almost carbon neutral (the process still consumes fossil fuel)

Very true, it's tough to find. I am fortunate enough to be within only a couple miles of 3 different stations which offer blends between B5 and B100.

Plus, a small refinery wouldn't take up much space. I calculated my needs, and I'd burn less than 12 gallons a week with the hypothetical excursion I mention in my blog. Should be fairly easy to find that much waste oil, and convert it.

Though, I'm currently in an apartment, and have a baby on the way, so I have neither the time, space, nor money to make it a reality. Still an interesting thought though.

 

[dogfriend]

You can compare vehicles at this site:

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Trio.do

I compared a 2006 Jetta TDI to a 2007 Prius. I couldn't find an 07 TDI. I used Arizona as the state since TDI is not available in CA.

I also tried to compare an F250 and an F350, but it only gave me the gas fueled models, nothing on the diesel models

 

[dogfriend]

I thought that it was interesting that an gas powered F350 puts out less smog producing chemicals than a VW TDI.

 

[IZwack]

Yeah why is that?

 

[dogfriend]

The Civic CNG is almost the same w/r/t emissions as a Prius, but slightly higher on CO2.

 

[kert0307]

As stated, it's the NOx that kills all diesels as far as emissions goes. Basically, diesels are much more efficient (because of the higher compression ratio), and gas engine are less efficient, but better for emissions. It has more to do with the style of ignition, cumbustion temp(for NOx), and length of the power stroke than fuel type for emissions. They are trying to get around the emissions with newer diesels, but it basically makes them much less efficient (multi stage injection means lower combustion temps, but unburnt fuel).

So basically, if you're going to buy a diesel, buy one soon, before all the higher tears of diesel engine regulations get up, because they will be much less efficient, once the emissions get more strict on them....think multistage injection and exhaust gas recirculation=worse fuel economy.

On a side note, a flex fuel vehicle is by far the worst combo to make for fuels. The engines in all of them are designed for gasoline, not ethanol. It it were truly designed for ethanol it would have a compression ratio closer to a diesel, and would get decent fuel economy, but regular gasoline wouldn't work(unless it was a very high octane).

end rant...

 

[dogfriend]

Yeah why is that?

NOx is higher, 0.4 g/mi vs. 0.6 g/mi for the TDI.

NOx is what creates the orange glow of the moon over Anaheim.

 

[CDW6212R]

Where are the columns showing the life expectancy of the vehicle, and the rebuild or remanufacturing cost? That's why a Hummer is a more cost effective vehicle than a Prius.

A higher compression engine to run propane or natural gas is a good option, but the industry is not motivated to do that, still.

 

[IZwack]

Where are the columns showing the life expectancy of the vehicle, and the rebuild or remanufacturing cost? That's why a Hummer is a more cost effective vehicle than a Prius.

I don't think the overall parts rebuild (engine, transmission, etc...) is part of the EPA's charter

But being the most cost effective isn't always the best solution.
Example: Pollution (as in not having the funnel $$ into recycling facilities, public awareness, etc..) is often the most cost effective: some companies (especially in rapid developing nations) are taking this route -- its so much cost effective to just dump the chemical into the nearest river or lake than it is to truck the chemical over to some facility for proper disposal.

 

[CDW6212R]

I was hinting at research which shows that the Prius costs more than a Hummer over their lifespan, including fuel and rebuild costs.

The research also revealed the massive pollution created by the production of the batteries in the Prius. The manufacturing costs to the buyers and the pollution created may be more than any production vehicle ever built. The manufacturing of the batteries in Canada has destroyed the environment there for 10-20 miles around the plant. The batteries travel completely around the world during the steps required to assemble them.

The Prius has a very short lifespan, and the cost to replace the batteries etc, it is huge compared to the cost of the vehicle. It's like Al Gore riding around in very wasteful vehicles while touting how environmentally caring he is. Do more research before spending hard earned money. Regards,

 

[IZwack]

AH gotcha, my apologies.

 

[dogfriend]

Where are the columns showing the life expectancy of the vehicle, and the rebuild or remanufacturing cost? That's why a Hummer is a more cost effective vehicle than a Prius.

That article that claims that a Hummer is a more cost effective vehicle than a Prius has been thoughly debunked by several independent sources. It was originally authored by CNW Marketing which performs consulting for GM and other domestic automakers.

Its complete BS.

Here are some relevant links:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Aut...us_HUMMER_Exploding_the_Myth.S196.A12220.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius#Lifetime_energy_cost

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf

 

[cherrybomb]

I thought that it was interesting that an gas powered F350 puts out less smog producing chemicals than a VW TDI.

It's because of the particulate matter and/or NOx.

Since the real focus of my comparison included biodiesel, I'd be interested to see what the difference is (if any) on NOx emissions using biodiesel fuel, as well as particulate matter.

 

[kert0307]

NOx is produced by high temps in the cylinder, doesn't really matter what fuel is being burnt, It's all carbon chain based, just different makeup.

 

[dogfriend]

The Prius has a very short lifespan, and the cost to replace the batteries etc, it is huge compared to the cost of the vehicle.

I don't think that anyone has proven that the Prius has a short lifespan, it is something that was stated (by a research group with questionable motives) to be the case. However, there are several real life examples of these cars reaching > 200k miles in taxi service. There is a guy who has put >300k miles on his 2002.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/in-the-news/t-ride-of-the-week-august-1-2007-5719.html#post39187

Regarding the HV battery; list price is $3k right now (about the same cost to rebuild an auto trans for many cars), there are used batteries available on Ebay for much less. My car has a 10yr / 150k mile warrenty for the HV battery.