Camber "maxed out" ??

[zavetsky]

On a 94 Explorer 4x4 stock suspension, is it possible for the camber to no longer be able to be shimmed (i.e. it is "maxed out") ??

I had one shop tell me that the thing needs shims on both sides to bring into spec and another shop said I am "maxed out" and that shims wont help at all...

HEEEEEELP!!! I am so confused....

Thanks in advance....

 

[Hartman]

If you have stock suspension, there is no way that your truck is not alignable unless something in the suspension is bent. You might want to get another shop's opinion.

 

[zavetsky]

"Maxed out"

Thanks...

This is going back to January when I had uppers and lowers balljoints replaced.....at the time, they told me that the shims that were in the truck were already maxed out....and that no further camber could be gained....

Well, the front drievr tire wore very bald on the inside, so I know SOMETHING is up....

So I take it to a different shop yesterday and they tell me that I need to have shims installed on both sides...I recall ".5 degree" being mentioned on the parts list.....I got scared off due to teh labor fee ($55 per side) and stopped them...

After checking here I find that that is reasonble, so I made some more calls.....other places wanted more.

SO I called the place where I originally had the work done and the guy there said $170 for alignment AND shims both sides....but that on 94 Explorers you can only shim so far and then that is it....you can do a toe-only alignment at that point.....He said I could swing by and he would look at it and tell me if it was "maxed out or not" but that he couldnt do the alignment till next week (booked solid)....

Far as I know, nothing is bent or anything.....I was thinking what you said...it doesnt amke sense that "for whatever reason" it cant be aligned.....new balljoints and nothing visibly bent, how can this be??

And what is involved in putting these shims in?? One place told me that it is a one-bolt thing, another said that the whole front end has to come apart....one shop said 45 minutes, another said 80 minutes, another said 2-3 hours.....ARGGGGGGGGGG!

WHY CANT I GET A STRAIGHT ANSWER from shops on this that jive with the others?!?!? <grin> I feel like Charlie Brown after Lucy yanks the ball away...again.

Thanks to anyone who can help...

DZ

 

[X~FACTOR]

Installing those are real PITA that is why they are charging so much. But from what you explain above it still brings you back to Hartman's comment:

If you have stock suspension, there is no way that your truck is not alignable unless something in the suspension is bent. You might want to get another shop's opinion.

 

[Hartman]

Let me get this straight, the guy that replaced your balljoints said that you didn't need an alignment AFTER he did the work?! That is ludacris. I would take your truck back to that guy and give him a piece of your mind. That's a downright lie.

 

[zavetsky]

"Let me get this straight, the guy that replaced your balljoints said that you didn't need an alignment AFTER he did the work?! "

When I had this done, I asked the very same thing...but....

He explained it this way....

The lowers dont effect alignment TOE, just camber, and mine is already maxed out.......he replaced the uppers which were technically fine, and they were setup for max camber.......he said that if it was wearing tires fine and not pulling before, it would be a waste of an alignment..He said he marked everything the way it came out and it all went back the same way....so I bought it at the time....

Well, it has started wearing tires so I know that SOMETHING changed, so my guess is that he was not 100% accurate....or something changed after that.

Still, he seems to know what he is doing...why would they recommend NOT having an alignement (ie lose money?) ??

MY worry is that NTB is going to chareg me to shim when nothing will change.....

DZ

 

[Hartman]

He is wrong, he was too lazy to do an alignment or something. Whenever you replace the balljoints, you need an alignment, no ifs ands or buts. Take your truck back to his shop and show him your tire wear. I would ask for those tires to be replaced because the tire wear is HIS fault.

Some shops try to talk you out of things sometimes (for whatever reason). Last year I went to get an alignment (before I was lowered), and the guy basically talked me out of it. I just don't understand.

 

[sirhk100]

Okay, it is "true" that your suspension"could" be out of whack enough that you can't get shims with enough dgree range to align it. If you're stock, this is for one of the 3 following reasons. Ball joints are wasted (not likely I guess if you've got new ones), Something is bent (have you hit anything hard? Jumping?), or your coils could be sagged. Does your front end look excessively low? That's all I can think of!!! A reliable decent shop should be able to tell you for sure if you can't get shims to get your truck into alignment cause it's so far outta whack and they should also be able to tell you what's wrong and why. The truck won't just mysteriously be all screwed up from ball joint replacement!!!

 

[410Fortune]

Camber shims take a max of 10 minutes per side with the right tools, you dont even have to take the tire off.......

Some liquid wrench, turn the pinch bolt with a 13mm 12 point socket, remove the c clip retainer and they are ready to come out or be adusted. A large flat head screwdriver can pull them out over the ball joint stud or they can be turned (adjusted) with large channel locks......

They make shims from 0 degrees to 2.75 degrees for a 4x4, there is no way a stock height Ex is maxed out....

Find a new shop.

For some reason the TTB front end scares people, they are lazy. When it comes to alignment you want to find a shop that is not scared of the TTB, $150 is normal charge when replacing shims.........

You can save $$$ by getting your own shims, but I dont think you need them, just somebody who knows what they are doing.......if you are wearing the inside of the tire you have - camber on that side.......

 

[zavetsky]

"Camber shims take a max of 10 minutes per side with the right tools, you dont even have to take the tire off.......Some liquid wrench, turn the pinch bolt with a 13mm 12 point socket, remove the c clip retainer and they are ready to come out or be adusted. A large flat head screwdriver can pull them out over the ball joint stud or they can be turned (adjusted) with large channel locks......"

So this is for a 94 as well? Sounds easy enough.....

"They make shims from 0 degrees to 2.75 degrees for a 4x4, there is no way a stock height Ex is maxed out....Find a new shop."

I guess I'll take it to NTB (a second one) and see what they say....I bought the truck used, but it never wore tires like that when I first got it....and I dont jump it or even really off-road...once a year we take it on the beach for a week...otherwsie, its a low-use ehicle and mostly around town....

" $150 is normal charge when replacing shims........."

Ok..if it is easy as you describe, why is it so damn much money?? Just the 'we know how to do it' thing?? I guess they have the tools too....the alignment machine...to do it right...

"if you are wearing the inside of the tire you have - camber on that side......."

Yeah, definately wear on the one tire....drivers side...passenger side was nice and even......Well, I guess I'll jump in and see what happens at this otehr shop then....


[/B][/QUOTE]

 

[Hartman]

Does the drivers side have visibly negative camber?

 

[zavetsky]

"If you're stock, this is for one of the 3 following reasons. Ball joints are wasted (not likely I guess if you've got new ones), Something is bent (have you hit anything hard? Jumping?), or your coils could be sagged. Does your front end look excessively low? "

I dont see any difference between my Ex and the others of the same year, so I dont think the coils are sagged.....no jumping, mostly a grocery getter....have had front end stuff done and no one ever mentioend anything bent, nor did the shop yesterday when they looked at it....

That's all I can think of!!! A reliable decent shop should be able to tell you for sure if you can't get shims to get your truck into alignment cause it's so far outta whack and they should also be able to tell you what's wrong and why. "

This is a great point.....I am going to anotehr NTB shop tonight and see what they say.....Times like these I wish I had a personal mechanic I could trust..<grin>...I do most work myself as far as brakes, etc...as much as I cando given my skills and tools... but stuff like front end I dont tinker with......

 

[zavetsky]

Followup

Well, as a followup:

I went to another NTB last night for an alignment ready to pay the piper for shims.....

I walked across the street to the Hummer dealer (!!!!!!!!) and looked around and drooled for about 20 minutes...looked across the street and saw my truck sitting in the lot again...

WTF!

Turns out that the toe was way out on both sides and the camber only -.02 off on the left side.....

They tell me that for that very tiny amount of negative camber, it isnt worth doing the shims.....although he said tehy are not just shims they on concentric shims........

Well, the truck rides fine now and doesnt pull so I guess all is well....

WHen I mentioned that another NTB said that I needed camber adjustments on both sides, he said that it could be the equipment they were using --- he said that his shop is the only one ion the region to have the new reflectorized style aligment equipment...the other one has the old style and that style makes the results dependent on user error....so, I guess we'll see in a few thoudand miles.... <grin>

I am feeling better about the X now, for the time being...although I just heard an ad on the radio for 2003 Explorers for $359/mth.... !That would be only about $120 more than my current payment....

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

DZ

 

[X~FACTOR]

Re: Followup

Originally posted by zavetsky
I just heard an ad on the radio for 2003 Explorers for $359/mth.... !That would be only about $120 more than my current payment....

Look deeper into that- it's not what it seems to be. You know how the saying goes, "if its too good to be true then...". Well you know the rest...

 

[zavetsky]

Re: Re: Followup

No doubt you are right....I find that price hard to believe as well...

I am feeling a bit better about my X right now....the alignemnet went well after all and hey...at least I know what problems I have versus another used (even though slightly) one or the hefty new payments for 6 years.....18 months and this one will be all mine !!! <grin>

I just hope she is worth having at that point!

Originally posted by X-factor
Look deeper into that- it's not what it seems to be. You know how the saying goes, "if its too good to be true then...". Well you know the rest...