Camber Problems

[BamakoJon]

My camber has always been just a little bit off, so when I needed new lower ball joints and tie rods, I figured that would fix the problem (I replaced the uppers about 20,000 miles ago). Instead it's actually worse after doing the job. Is there something that I could have done wrong to make it that way? I ordered a camber kit which should be coming pretty soon, but it's still a little concerning that with new parts the problem is worse. Any suggestions?

 

[J_C]

When was an alignment last done? Last tire purchase, before or after the upper control arms?

It would have needed an alignment after the upper control arms. If that alignment was done with worn lower BJs that might change the camber a bit. For that reason I would always replace the lower BJs when the uppers are done (unless they are much newer and a major brand so expected not to have much wear yet), though if it wasn't realigned with worn lower BJs, new BJs alone should not change the camber, nor would tie rods.

Do you have any potholes there in TX? I suspect not as many as I have here, where I could hit several every time I go out and I can't really assume anything about alignment until it gets funny tire wear or a handling change, though speed bumps, railroad tracks, off-roading etc, can be an issue.

Is it possible your camber adjustment bolts/cams have moved? Both wheels or just one?

 

[BamakoJon]

The last time I had it aligned was when I did the upper control arms. The lower ball joints were still stiff at that point, so I wasn't worried. I have redone the toe myself after hitting a bump particularly hard and knocking it out, but the camber was fine after doing that. I have bought new tires since then, and just rotated them when I had the front wheels off.

I thought that maybe the small amount of play in the lower ball joints would be what was causing the small camber maladjustment, but no dice... It's not possible for the camber bolts to have moved because it still has the stock non-adjustable square ones. I just bought a full set (for both sides) a couple of days ago and now am waiting on that to come in the mail before taking it to get aligned. I don't particularly fancy having to take it twice...

There are some potholes, and I have whacked it pretty hard a couple of times (which is probably why the one tie rod was really bad). The only thing that I've noticed concerning tire wear though is that the insides were wearing faster than the outsides, but not that the fronts were wearing any significant amount more than the back. I've got about 7000 miles on these tires if that helps. Thanks!

 

[poker4me007]

Just a suggestion.
After you put in your camber bolts and get it aligned.When you get home check the foot lbs. on the camber bolts, and retorgue if necessary, check them again after a couple hundred miles or so.
Last time I had an alignment the bolts were below spec. I marked them, and retorqued them.

 

[gmanpaint]

Inside wear is negative camber. All camber is adjusted on the Upper arms only. (Only toe is set on the lowers, via TRE)

Tires:
Are the new tires taller than the old tires? If so by how much? Height affects camber setting.
If new tires are the same size (#) as the old ones, they will be taller, and can cause some negative camber. If you went taller, then you need another alignment to compensate.

Torsion twist. If this is done it creates negative camber, by pulling the upper arms in. Setting new camber specs are harder as the stock baseline specs are changed. To negate this, the arms need pushed farther out to compensate.

Cam bolts:
If much taller tires are used, then the stock cam adjuster bolts don't offer the degree of adjustment needed, and a larger degree cam is needed. +/- 2* cams are normally good till new 33"-34", or half life 35" tires. Rockauto.com sells these for a decent price. 1/2* more adjustment can make a huge difference in camber adjustment.

If these bigger cams do not fix your negative camber issue, your tires are too big for the stock arms, or you have other issues, such as a bad bearing unit, bent spindle, wrong size/bad upper arms, wrong/bad upper BJ, or a Crappy alignment shop.

 

[swshawaii]

Rear thrust alignments are expensive compared to four M14x1.50 jam nuts.
Alignment printout help

 

[J_C]

Tires:
Are the new tires taller than the old tires? If so by how much? Height affects camber setting.
If new tires are the same size (#) as the old ones, they will be taller, and can cause some negative camber. If you went taller, then you need another alignment to compensate.

Adjusting the ride height with suspension changes definitely affects front wheel camber, but tire height alone?

 

[gmanpaint]

Yes. Tire height also multiplies the degree angle, and is more pronounced the taller it goes.

Try it on paper. Draw an L, but make the vertical line a slight angle upwards 3". Draw a line straight down from top. Should have a triangle now. Measure the gap between the 2 vertical lines at the bottom. Now continue on with the angled vertical line another 3". Draw another line from the top (6") of that straight down. Now measure that gap like you just did on the shorter line.

The gap is larger and the angle is more pronounced. Same thing happens on the tire.

Our upper arms are shorter than the lower arms. During articulation in both up and down swings, the upper arm pulls the top of the tire inwards and creates negative camber both directions.

The taller the tire with the same camber setting, makes more noticable camber and tilts the tire so less contact is made underneath. The shorter the tire, the less its pronounced and more contact is made.

This is also true the wider the tire is, as it lifts the outer edge up underneath, as it is tilted inward at the top.

So, the taller the tire, the more the upper arm needs pushed outwards. This in turn, pushes the upper part if the knuckle outwards, which pushes the top of the tire outwards.

This is what the adjustment cams do. They push or pull the upper arms in/ out.

Best I can do here. Lol

 

[J_C]

^ I can't visualize it and the web search I did suggested tire height doesn't matter.

 

[gmanpaint]

Well, I can tell you this much from hands on experience...

Going from stock tires to 31's the stock cams worked.

Going from 31's to 33's, they maxed out, and had to install larger cams to push the arms more to get rid of negative camber.

Going from 33's to fresh 35's, the larger cams maxed out, leaving too much negative camber.

To fix this, custom upper arms, longer than stock was installed.

Take away what you want from that or nothing at all.

 

[BamakoJon]

The new tires are the same size as the old ones (LT225/75R16), so any size difference will be from the newer tread. Everything I've got is stock, so I'm not worried about the control arm being too short...

It's not so far out that the cam's won't be enough to fix the problem, I just wanted to make sure that there wasn't anything that I could have done wrong in replacing the lower ball joints and tie rods that would cause the camber to be worse than it was before! I'll post whenever I get the cams installed and everything aligned. Thanks!

 

[J_C]

The only thing you could do wrong with the lower BJs is if the knuckle hole for the BJ stud is very rusted or the BJ stud is off-spec (oversized) and so it does not fully seat in the hole. Even then I wouldn't expect much difference. The tie rods will only affect toe.

 

[J_C]

Well, I can tell you this much from hands on experience...

Going from stock tires to 31's the stock cams worked.

Going from 31's to 33's, they maxed out, and had to install larger cams to push the arms more to get rid of negative camber.

Going from 33's to fresh 35's, the larger cams maxed out, leaving too much negative camber.

To fix this, custom upper arms, longer than stock was installed.

Take away what you want from that or nothing at all.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but you "probably" (definitely?) can't fit over 31's without altering the stock suspension to do so, so it seems more likely it was the suspension change not the tire height that caused alignment issues.

Yes you will need a longer control arm to keep alignment after "enough" of a lift.

A taller tire aligns (mating angle) exactly the same against the hub so all other angles remain exactly the same except scrub radius in cornering. That opens a whole different can of worms about whether to change the camber for better cornering but meh, these vehicles will tip over cornering before tire traction makes that much difference.

 

[gmanpaint]

I mentioned the torsion twist creates a negative camber earlier. Your right to think along this line. But...

In my case, the TT was done with the 31" tire install, and the exact same amount of lift created back then, is the same thru the rest of the tires size changes.

Its not that the actual degree itself has changed. Like I said, it gets more pronounced the taller the tire is. The inner edge of the tire increases its distance from the center as it rises.

You can talk to the makers of aftermarket upper control arms as to why this is. They can explain it far better than I can obviously.