Conventional vs Synthentic

[DeagleDave]

I was wondering about the advantages of Amsoil vs good ol' valvoline. I used to use amsoil in my 89 F-150 and i got about 25,000 between changes. I started that at about 80,000 miles. My Explorer is currently at 158,000 and I don't know if that is wise or adviseable. Is it worth it or will I be needing a rebuild soon? It is a 2wd so basically its all surface travel for me. Would love to hear your opinions.

 

[AgExplorer]

If your X is in good mechanical condition and not leaking oil anywhere, go ahead and make the switch to AMSOIL. I would recommend using a can of AMSOIL's Engine Flush to clean up all the crud in your engine. Barring any unseen mechanical problems, you should not have to do a rebuild. There a several posters on the board who are approaching 200,000 miles with the original engine and report no performance issues.

I switched my Accord over to AMSOIL at 148,000 miles and now have 194,000 with no leaks and 2 MPG better fuel economy.

 

[RTStork]

I agree with AgExplorer. If you don't have any major oil leaks then by all means change over to all synthetic fluids.

 

[aldive]

I am a firm believer in synthetic fluids ( motor, tranny, diff ). You will like it.

However, I do not recommend using any kind of motor "flush". I have seen many problems caused by them.

Good luck.....

 

[jimmiecakes]

Always one to be the "spoiler". With no real good reason for the added expense, I see no reason to switch from dino-lube. Synthetics biggest claim to fame is "thermal stability" - both in the heat and in the cold.

I have an extremely difficult time with claims of extended service intervals (with synthetics) since dino and synths are subject to the same byproducts of combustion, oxidation, acid formation and so on.

Oil isn't just oil..... it is a combination of base stocks, pour point viscosity improvers, various (acid, foam oxidation, eyc.) inhibitors, shear modifiers (geez, I shoulda been a chemist) and another list goes on and on....

Dino or synthetic, there is no replacement for regular, timely service. Beware the miracle claims - "If it sounds too good to be true - it probably is" - Ann Landers

 

[SGF]

oil (long)

I'm writing this in the hope that I can share something worthwhile since I've learned so much from other people on this board. I've been wrestling with this same issue for quite some time. I've had my Exp. about six weeks and it has 163,000 miles on it. That got me thinking about the synthetic issue all over again.

In the last month, and in years prior to that as well, I've done a ton of reading on this issue. I also e-mailed Mobile 1's tech. line to ask more questions. I like most consumers who are interested in their vehicles want engine longevity at the best price.


Before I list my findings I'll freely admit that all the reading I did resulted in as many questions as it did answers. I was particularly concerned about my Harley's engine. It is air-cooled and much more susceptible to temperature changes and potential heat damage than the Explorer is.

I freely admit that this is what "I" have found, and that others may disagree. My only concern is finding out what is best for me. My loyalty is to my wallet and vehicle dependability and longevity. I have used Vavoline in my 6 and 8 cyl. engines and Castrol in the 4's for almost 30 years, and I'd change in a minute if something convinced me another product was better, all things considered.

Okay, here goes. Keep in mind that my comments are about daily drivers, not race cars and specialty vehicles.

1. Synthetics are more stable at higher temps. The ranges where this becomes an issue are rarely significant to water-cooled engines.

2. Synthetics cost about 3 - 4 times more than traditional oils.

3. Amsoil is not readily available in all areas and costs about the same as Mobile 1 and some other synthetics that are readily available. I read numerous posts on other boards that claimed Amsoil synthetic was better than all other oils. It may be better but not one of the Amsoil advocates I contacted was able to tell me why. A couple of advocates said they got a dealer license for $25.00 per year and get the oil cheaper. Only you can decide if that's worthwhile. By no means am I inferring that Amsoil isn't a great product. I just don't understand why anyone would choose a more difficult to obtain (when applicable), like priced product when equal alternatives are readily available.

4. Pennsylvania oils like Pennzoil and Quaker State are "purer" than Texas and foreign based motor oils. I have no idea if this is true or if it even matters but the comment was made in numerous articles.

5. The majority of people who use synthetics still change their oil far more often than the recommended times, but less so than they did with traditional oils. In my opinion this makes perfect sense (see #6 &#7) but it also negates one of the biggest reasons to by synthetic.

6. Much of an engine oil's value is in its additives. The additives are what are affected by time. They are also the likely weak link whose failure would result in engine damage. From everything I can tell additives are no more reliable in synthetics than in regular oil. That may be why Mobile 1 dropped its early ads touting (I think the mileage was 100,000) extremely long periods between oil changes.

7. ALL oils get dirty ! This, in my view, although obvious, is the most significant thing my research made me consider. Common sense would tell us that dirt is dirt and dirt is bad for our engines regardless of what oil we use. We also know that the longer the same oil cycles through an engine the dirtier that oil, and the filter become.

8. Almost no one is talking about semi-synthetics, or blends. They fit in the middle price wise but there was so little comment on them that I can't offer comment. I'm interested though, if anyone else can offer something.

9. There is product and brand loyalty from both camps. Few of the most violent debates I read resulted in a clear winner through factual/scientific information.

10. Oil company ads are just that, "ads". You can't make buying decisions based on manufacturer claims. We all know that but sometimes they are our only source of information so we lean in their direction. Disagree?, then consider this. Some years back a popular consumer oriented motorcycle magazine hired a very knowledgeable independent petroleum Chemist (I think that's what he was called). His mission was to do in-depth research into whether or not motorcycle oils were better in air or water-cooled motorcycle engines than quality automotive oils. The testing was very impressive and since the magazine didn't take ads, I think honest. The conclusion was that the motorcycle specific oils offered no advantage. Well as you might imagine the motorcycle oil manufacturers collective heads unscrewed. Keep in mind that motorcycle oil typically costs 2.5 to 3 times more than car oils. The magazine was barraged with motorcycle oil company comments that the testing was false and just about every other argument in existence. Finally the magazine got fed up. They offered a $150,000 (I think that was the amount) reward and a promise to publish a correction for any motorcycle oil manufacturer who could scientifically disprove anything in the magazines tests, or that their motorcycle oil would out perform the car oils. I read the magazine for years after that and no one ever got the money.

So what did I personally decide? The motorcycle is getting 15W 50 Mobile 1. There is no advantage to using the more costly new V-Twin Mobile 1. The company says there will be benefits for some newer bikes. I think the lower quantity of oil needed in the bike and the heat protection of its air-cooled engine make the change cost effective.

I'm sticking with traditional oils in the Explorer and our other water-cooled vehicles. I can't justify the high cost of the synthetics since I know I will not extend my oil changes beyond 3,000 miles.

I hope this post is taken in the spirit it was meant. I know there is great debate on this issue and sometimes people take things personally. I'm open minded to any research that will teach me something I don't know.

SGF

 

[tbomb]

it seems everyday i read another thread about "dino oil vs. synthetic", and people are constantly saying "ive been wrestling with this argument", or "i still dont know which is better", or something to that effect.

before i belittle the argument, i just have to know, do you guys actually lose sleep over this?

its just oil. for years, the rule of thumb is to change your oil every 3k. supossedly, with synthetics you can go longer than 3k (designed for the lazy man (or woman.)) (im not too concerned with the other potential "positive" effects of synthetic oil, such as
less engine wear. so in 12 years my engine will still be in good condition, or, 'god forbid', i get in an accident next week and the trucks junk anyway, or the engine goes in a year. basically, to sum up this point, the other "positive" points of synthetic oil are negligble in the short term.)

as far as engine longevity, yeah, people have engines with 300,000 miles on them and they say they run good; well congratulations, but im sure that theres plenty of people with dino oil who have 300,000 miles or more on their engines and they run fine.

cost issues: in my old truck, i used to use pennzoil which was about $1.50/quart. in my new truck, since i drove it off the lot, i always use mobil 1 which is about $4.50/quart. it seems to me that the cost difference of $3.00/quart (which ends up being about $15.00 more for the whole oil change) isnt going to make anyone miss their mortgage payments (and if it is, then you already know the answer to this argument.)

my point is, theres engines with 300,00 miles on them that run on dino oil, and theres engines that blow up with 10,000 miles on them with synthetic oil in them. cost: if you can afford it, and you want to use synthetic, then do it; if not, then dont worry, your car will still start tomorrow morning.

but dont listen to me, i use synthetic oil and change it and the filter every 3k.

 

[jimmiecakes]

And TBomb does bring me to another point....... Every week, at least one person asks about a used vehicle they are considering. Is the motor sound? Are the brakes good? When all the while they can't seem to see those great gaping rust holes.

In the grand scheme of vehicle ownership, motors, transmissions and brakes are small potatoes when put against what it costs for decent rust repair...

 

[SGF]

Tbomb writes:” before i belittle the argument, i just have to know, do you guys actually lose sleep over this?"

In a word "no", I don't anyway. Tbomb makes a good point. It isn't an end of the world issue. I think it's simply a matter of interest to thinking people (and you can certainly be a "thinking person" who has no interest in the topic) who want to prolong vehicle life.

I suppose the reason we have a forum like this is to share opinions on a wide range of auto topics. It appears that most posts in the "Under the Hood" section center on either prolonging vehicle life, increasing dependability or saving money through good maintenance. I suppose the same would be said of any car club, or anyplace where automotive enthusiasts meet.

Yes, we could all say "screw it, if it breaks I'll by another one" but if we all did that we wouldn't have the tremendously more dependable modern cars that we have today. Cars last longer and get mom and the kids home safer because of people who think about what works better. In my case oil is a lot more interesting topic than what mud flaps look cooler. That’s why I skip those posts.

SGF

 

[spiper]

Well said.:redexp:

 

[timfretwell]

I know a lot of folks are reporting a slight improvement in gas mileage with synthetic. I've gone about 7Kmiles on synthetic now (about 52K on vehicle) and I'm disappointed to say, my mileage is exactly what it was before I switched.

 

[tbomb]

Originally posted by timfretwell
I know a lot of folks are reporting a slight improvement in gas mileage with synthetic. I've gone about 7Kmiles on synthetic now (about 52K on vehicle) and I'm disappointed to say, my mileage is exactly what it was before I switched.

dont expect any mpg increases or horsepower increases or anything like that. some people claim it, but those people only think they get those improvements. its all in their head.

 

[AgExplorer]

Originally posted by tbomb


dont expect any mpg increases or horsepower increases or anything like that. some people claim it, but those people only think they get those improvements. its all in their head.

Everyone will not see an improvement. There are a lot of other factors that could be affecting the fuel mileage and performance (i.e. bad PCV, O2 sensors, EGR).

I have documented the increased fuel mileage from switching to synthetics. I have over 6 years of recording every tank of fuel, mileage and MPG on our now deceased Explorer. Approximately 17% better. Yep, it's all in my head and on paper.

AMSOIL is readily available all over the country. All you have to do is pick up the phone and call. You'll have it in 1 to 2 business days. It doesn't get much easier than that.

 

[99explorer5.0]

I can agree with the all in your head idea. I purchaced a KKM filter when i first became a member of this site. Everyone was saying how much of a performance increase it did. I purchased my V8 explorer bran new and i was looking for an instant HP increase as well as a MPG increaser. Well i bought the KKM and it did absolutly nothing as far as acceleration or gas millage. Everything stayed the same as it was before i bought it. It did however make the engine louder when i floor it. Maybe if you guys experinced a HP increase or millage increase after getting the KKM it was because your original filter was so damn dirty and it was finually breathing the way it was supposed to. I switched to the KKM when i first got the truck and the original filter was clean.

Back to the oil subject ... If you think your getting better performance or gas millage its all in your head. The only way you can get better millage is if you run a heavy weight oil and then switch to a thinner oil. I think at that point you will have a slight difference if any in millage.

 

[tbomb]

Originally posted by 99explorer5.0
I can agree with the all in your head idea. I purchaced a KKM filter when i first became a member of this site. Everyone was saying how much of a performance increase it did. I purchased my V8 explorer bran new and i was looking for an instant HP increase as well as a MPG increaser. Well i bought the KKM and it did absolutly nothing as far as acceleration or gas millage. Everything stayed the same as it was before i bought it. It did however make the engine louder when i floor it. Maybe if you guys experinced a HP increase or millage increase after getting the KKM it was because your original filter was so damn dirty and it was finually breathing the way it was supposed to. I switched to the KKM when i first got the truck and the original filter was clean.

i agree. mines the same with the kkm as it was without it, but im a big fan of just knowing that theres less air flow restriction even though i cant feel the difference.

Originally posted by AgExplorer

Everyone will not see an improvement. There are a lot of other factors that could be affecting the fuel mileage and performance (i.e. bad PCV, O2 sensors, EGR).

I have documented the increased fuel mileage from switching to synthetics. I have over 6 years of recording every tank of fuel, mileage and MPG on our now deceased Explorer. Approximately 17% better. Yep, it's all in my head and on paper.

AMSOIL is readily available all over the country. All you have to do is pick up the phone and call. You'll have it in 1 to 2 business days. It doesn't get much easier than that.

well, thats a sales pitch if i ever heard one. obviously anyone who read this thread has to make up their own mind; they can take the information from the guys who are a little more realistic about oil changes, and take the sales pitches from the guys who make a living selling the magic oil that adds power and increases gas mileage, and either pick one or the other, meet somewhere in the middle, or just tell us all to go f*ck off

 

[S. Allen]

for what its worth...

I have used Castrol STX 10W-30 in our Explorer, until last year, when Valvolene came out with their Max-life oil. We now put 10W-30 Max-life in our Explorer (with a proper Motorcraft FL-1 filter, always) and we have no oil leaks or burning of oil in 6 years and 135K miles.

I have also run Castrol 20W-50 in my 91 Ranger since I have owned it. We live in Houston, TX, where its hotter than hell and you sit in traffic forever, so that warrants the thinker oil. I recently switched to Valvolene Maxlife 20W-50 in this vehicle too. It burns about 1/2qt. between changes, but hey, its 11 years old and has 179K miles on it...whadya expect? The Ranger does not leak any oil on the driveway...nor has it ever.

Synthetics? Well, I do not discout their effectiveness and lots of people swear by them, but I see no reason to change and have no experiences with them. I put too many miles on our cars and change the oil often - usually before 3K miles, so I don't need any added expenses or oil that is hard to find.

Hey...I report...you decide.

-SA

 

[AgExplorer]

It's just my data, pure and simple. As old Joe Friday in Dragnet said, "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."

Oh, and I don't make my living selling "magic oil". I'm a Business Analyst with a part-time, home based business.

Let the debate continue.

 

[99explorer5.0]

Isnt lubrication great? Lubrication is the key element in many of lifes fine pleasures as well as the long life of your engine.

 

[aldive]

Originally posted by AgExplorer
It's just my data, pure and simple. As old Joe Friday in Dragnet said, "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."

Oh, and I don't make my living selling "magic oil". I'm a Business Analyst with a part-time, home based business.

Let the debate continue.

Its not only in my head and on paper, but most important in my wallet. I do everything possible to increase mileage in my 99 SOHC.

Unlike Ag Explorer, who uses Amsol products, I use Mobile 1 5 w 30. I picked up a little over 2 MPG just with the oil switch, we got over 3 MPG in a 4 banger Nissan Pick Up and my son’s Toyota T100 picked up just over 1 MPG ( but he is an extremely aggressive driver ).

It works for me; I am a believer….

 

[RTStork]

Originally posted by 99explorer5.0
Isnt lubrication great? Lubrication is the key element in many of lifes fine pleasures.

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