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Ford 9-Inch, What I've Learned

KurtECV

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Well done @imp.

Question for you, I have a 9 I'm building. A few resources I have found online say that over 4.56 gears the teeth get too long and hit the staddle bearing housing. A few resources say grinding the toe edge of the ring gear is prefered over the housing, 1) because that section of the ring gear is not used. 2) grinding the housing would make it weaker and prone to failure. What are your thoughts on this?

Next question: I am replacing the crush sleeve with a solid spacer and shims. The solid spacer is a two piece design with the shims contained between them. Without a shim, I am low on pinion bearing preload and high when I add a 0.006 shim (the thinnest shim that came in the set).

I assume I am going to have to machine the solid spacer down, 0.255 and use the 0.0060 shim to gain the approximate 0.447. Am I on the correct mental path right now. Yukon Gear and Axle (who makes the kit is no help.
 


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imp

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Well done @imp.

Question for you, I have a 9 I'm building. A few resources I have found online say that over 4.56 gears the teeth get too long and hit the staddle bearing housing. A few resources say grinding the toe edge of the ring gear is prefered over the housing, 1) because that section of the ring gear is not used. 2) grinding the housing would make it weaker and prone to failure. What are your thoughts on this?

Next question: I am replacing the crush sleeve with a solid spacer and shims. The solid spacer is a two piece design with the shims contained between them. Without a shim, I am low on pinion bearing preload and high when I add a 0.006 shim (the thinnest shim that came in the set).

I assume I am going to have to machine the solid spacer down, 0.255 and use the 0.0060 shim to gain the approximate 0.447. Am I on the correct mental path right now. Yukon Gear and Axle (who makes the kit is no help.
@KurtECV
OK, just caught your post as I was shutting down for tonight. I have a friend in Flagstaff who just did a solid spacer on his 8.8, detailed the process. I'll look that up, get back to you tomorrow. imp
 




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I would remove the metal from the ring gear to gain the clearance needed. If possible to measure the amount of clearance needed, and use a lathe to hold the ring gear as needed, this way it is possible to make a clean and symmetrical removal of material from each rear tooth. I would however think the manufacturer would have already done this.
 




gmanpaint

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I just know about the 8.8, but it sounds like the spacers is the issue. 1 spacer, and a few shims, is all it should take.

Why would Yukon want to use 2 spacers and shims together, but make them too long to use the shims?

Are there 2 different applications for the 9, and Yukon sends spacers for both, in the same kit?
 




KurtECV

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I just know about the 8.8, but it sounds like the spacers is the issue. 1 spacer, and a few shims, is all it should take.

Why would Yukon want to use 2 spacers and shims together, but make them too long to use the shims?

Yes, the second tapered spacer is installed when the Daytona pinion support is used in the 9"

I have seen guys have to machine the spacer, but that was on drag racing applications and there were no shims provided with those kits, you would set correct pinion bearing preload using a crush sleeve, disassemble the pinion, and measure the crush sleeve and then machine the solid spacer to the specs of the crush sleeve and when its correct you would install the solid spacer.


Are there 2 different applications for the 9, and Yukon sends spacers for both, in the same kit?
 




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Hmm, people have been making their own solid spacers for years, using that same method. The kits haven't been around that long, and offering them with the shims was a convenience for builders.

Point being, is if it isn't working, something is a miss. Have you looked at other kits, to compare the components?
 




KurtECV

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Target thickness seens to be in the ballpark of 0.470
Solid Spacer: 0.2080
tapered spacer: 0.3215
The tapered spacer is recessed on the bottom, for the solid spacer to sit, that is why the above numbers dont add up the the "spacers alone" spec
Spacers alone: 0.4450"
spacer with entire shim stack: 0.3100"
Tapers spacer with entire shim stack: 0.3305
Unfortunately I seem to have misplaced the original crush sleeve. But i did measure it and it was taller than the entire crush sleeve eliminator kit, but keep in mind this was a used axle and there is no telling what the PO set the preload to, if it was ever changed. it had 3.0:1 gears

Here is a list of thicknesses i have available:
Solid spacer: 0.2080
Tapered: 0.3215 (recessed area within this spacer, where the shims and solid spacer sit, is approx 0.0835)
Spacers only: 0.4450
0.0190
0.0110x3
0.0085x3
0.0080
0.0060
0.0055
 




KurtECV

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Hmm, people have been making their own solid spacers for years, using that same method. The kits haven't been around that long, and offering them with the shims was a convenience for builders.

Point being, is if it isn't working, something is a miss. Have you looked at other kits, to compare the components?

I agree. There are a bunch if variations of those spacer kits. Almost as many as there are options for gear ratios lol
 




KurtECV

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Well i got a hold of C&M Gear works in Springfield, Mo and they hooked me up like a tow-truck. The guy gave me a handful of shims and put them outside (they closed at 530) and didnt charge me a dime for them.

Two spacers and one 0.0045 shim and the preload is a 14 lbs-in (rotational torque) at 137 lbs-ft (pinion nut torque.)

For anyone that needs hard to find trans or differential parts, look them up. Their sales guys know what they are talking about. They will ship anywhere. They have a website and sell new/used parts. They website kinda sucks so i have always had to call them but they always get you what you need.
 




KurtECV

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I figured I would post on here if anyone else Can find my info useful.

@imp what do you think?
0326191812.jpg
coast side

0326191812a.jpg
drive side.
 




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I figured I would post on here if anyone else Can find my info useful.

@imp what do you think?
@KurtECV
I would say given the few teeth checked and not looking at the opposite side of the ring, these are well-used gears rather than brand new,

the drive side is fairly good, coast side I wouldn't worry about the deep toe contact, if the mesh feels smooth and quiet when turned by hand, applying as much load to the pinion with a rag wrapped around it, turning them by grasping the ring gear.

I've found that especially with used gears, I got quieter running results by altering the pattern away from ideal, and usually with back-lash on the high end of acceptable. imp
 




KurtECV

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@KurtECV
I would say given the few teeth checked and not looking at the opposite side of the ring, these are well-used gears rather than brand new,

the drive side is fairly good, coast side I wouldn't worry about the deep toe contact, if the mesh feels smooth and quiet when turned by hand, applying as much load to the pinion with a rag wrapped around it, turning them by grasping the ring gear.

I've found that especially with used gears, I got quieter running results by altering the pattern away from ideal, and usually with back-lash on the high end of acceptable. imp

Spec (per Yukon) is 6-10 thousands backlash. Its sitting right at 0.007 with that pattern. I can not remember what I set the pinion shim at.
 




KurtECV

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The gears didn't look very worn. Circle track is big out here so you can find tons of gears for the 9s with little use on them. Most of them are in 5.13 to 6.50 range.

I have no problem putting a pattern around the entire ring gear, and advise it helpful
 




KurtECV

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@imp

One problem i am coming up with is how to set carrier bearing preload. About the only way i have seen is to measure case spread, using a 90 degree hole attachment on the dial indicator. If that is the case, then i will be buying one. Your input is appreciated
 




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@imp

One problem i am coming up with is how to set carrier bearing preload. About the only way i have seen is to measure case spread, using a 90 degree hole attachment on the dial indicator. If that is the case, then i will be buying one. Your input is appreciated
@KurtECV
Case spread would be about as inaccurate a means as push pull & grunt. Ford Shop Manuals from Day One (1958, and I have one) recommended a certain number of the little holes in the adjustment nuts tight from no-play after establishing proper contact pattern and lash. I'm gonna say it was 2 to 2-1/2 holes tight, divided in two, applied to each nut. I will drag out a shop manual to confirm that number, in about an hour. Maybe morning.

Keep in mind one variable: aftermarket carriers MAY have bearing caps having a different thread pitch for the nuts, finer or coarser, which would change the number of holes to tighten. My info is for Ford carriers, of course.

EDIT: Damn! My 1959 manual calls out 2 to 2-1/2 hole as I said. 1972 Shop Manual used 0.008 to 0.012 inches CASE SPREAD. There ya go! imp
 




KurtECV

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Well then I guess I'll be buying the 90* adapter. There have been a few situations where it will be very handy to have
 




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Well then I guess I'll be buying the 90* adapter. There have been a few situations where it will be very handy to have
@KurtECV
I apologize for misleading you. The greatest bulk of my work on 9s was many, many years ago, and I've forgotten a lot of details I used everyday. I do recall a diff bearing preload recommendation from somewhere expressed in IN-LBS. just like the pinion. That would make the most sense. To make a hairy-assed guess, it has to be less than the pinion, and reason might say about 3 to 5 inch pounds. You could easily do this with a fish scale hooked to the inner edge of a ring gear tooth, calling the gear 5/12 of a foot (about 1/2) and go 5/12 of 5 inch pounds = about 2 lbs. reading on the fish scale. Believe it or not, I did a whole lot of such estimating and working by educated guesswork early on, and my results were satisfying.

The pinion gears experience harsher operating conditions than the ring gear, as it's bearings are closer together. Picture a long prybar vs a short one, trying to raise a big rock. Same concept. Bearings on diff carrier 4 or 5 times farther apart than on pinion gear, experience less force on them. Also, carrier supports diff much more rigidly than the pinion, so lower stresses on it's bearings. Put in the extreme, if a rotational part like an axle had it's bearings a mile apart, it would be impossible for forces on the center of it to damage them; can you see the picture? imp
 




KurtECV

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That makes a lot of sense. I have seen a few reputable builders use an inch pound torque wrench and rotate (at the pinion nut) the entire assembled center section and getting readings in the 23 lbs in range, I can not confirm or deny of that is correct. That just seems like a reasonable way to check the entire assembly. 13-15 lbs-in on the pinion bearing preload and subtracting the aforementioned pinion preload should give you the carrier bearing preload.

Sounds about right to be, what do you think?
 




KurtECV

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imp

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That makes a lot of sense. I have seen a few reputable builders use an inch pound torque wrench and rotate (at the pinion nut) the entire assembled center section and getting readings in the 23 lbs in range, I can not confirm or deny of that is correct. That just seems like a reasonable way to check the entire assembly. 13-15 lbs-in on the pinion bearing preload and subtracting the aforementioned pinion preload should give you the carrier bearing preload.

Sounds about right to be, what do you think?
Yes. Most important of course is pinion bearing preload, determined with the pinion mounted in the pinion carrier, seal and bearings all installed. The pinion assembly on 9s only uses a shim to locate the entire assembly in the carrier for purpose of establishing lash and contact pattern. imp
 




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