Gears and Lockers

[LessDirty]

I think both shafts are the same, in fact you can swap Ranger axles into a Mustang for a cheap and easy 5 bolt pattern swap. I think the shaft size difference is the diffrence between IRS and non-IRS. Don't ask me which is which, but as far as I know the straight 8.8's are all the same other than widths.

As far as welding your rear, I highly rec. against it for reasons I have already explained. While I have owned many full spool rears and am about to put another spool in another street driven car of mine, welding a rear can get you into a hairy mess quickly and thats why you can't run them at the track. Another issue is the rotating mass. Spider gears are heavy, very heavy. If you went to the trouble to go buy a chip and pit in some kind of K&N airfilter, you ought to loose rotating mass. A spool is $150.........not all that expensive if you want a full locking rear, just don't weld the rear.

Just like I go around and tell guys not to ski without a life jacket, don't ride a motorcycle without a helmet, I am telling you not to weld your spider gears............Murphy is an SOB and I promise you that while it all seems good today, its tomorrow that brings the unknown! (and yes you can quote me on that)

Somehow I feel like I am coming across as some kinda A-hole on this thread, and I hope thats not the case, I just have done this kinda stuff for years and I want some of ya'll to benifit from my and my friends past mistakes. While I have a ton of questions for ya'll and will yield when its about something I DON'T know........when I DO know a fact, I am gunna say my piece.

Most of ya'll do not know me because I am new. I did post in the Nebie section with little "welcome" but I can understand it because this site is HUGE. For those that do NOT know me should know that I have been racing in a few different sanctions for about 15 years give or take and off and on. I also own my mech shop here in Houston as well as a handful of ASE certs. I goto tech. meetings and seminars as often as time and money will allow and post on 3 different threads. I help answer about 10 different tech questions on 3 different forums per week (give or take). While it may look like I am patting myself on the back, I am only tring to point out to some of the less "learned and experienced" fellas on here that when I don't have any clue to something I shut up and say nothing, in fact I may even ask what you mean or for you to elaberate so that I can learn, but in this case I KNOW EXACTLY what I am talking about............its up to you now to make the best choice.

You can spool it, but it does kill tires (chop). You can over clutch it with great results IF YOU ALREADY HAVE a stk L/S diff (safe, it works, and easy), you can use one of the various after market lockers (of which I am not familiar with other than the poo-poo Auburn), but do NOT weld the gears for fear of damage and catastophic failure that can result in the rear becoming jamed and locking up at a high rate of speed......ie Heat from welding creating metal fatigue which resulted in becoming cracked while off road, then you drive your truck onto the freeway......the stress of the driving breaks a large chunk of the rear gears which becomes tangled into the rotating mass which IMEDIATELY locks the rear end......you end up spinning out of control and possibly fliping at 65mph! :roll:

Does it sound like I just made this up, came onto this board to only mess with this one topic for no good reason? You think I paid $30 to give someone a hard time about welding rear ends together? No, I have heard of this happening time after time after time. So have track owners and thats why ALL sanctioning bodies have outlawed its use........in dirt track, asphalt, drag 1/4 mile, 1/8 mile, and SCCA to include club racing and Solo events.

I am sorry to ramble on and hope no one is offended, but I felt is was my duty as "someone" that knew better to tell those that don't know any better. And yes, I knew guys that did it anyways and had no problems.........but I guess I could say the same for Russian Roulette, but I don't sudg. you do that either!

 

[spindlecone]

About 3 lbs maybe

 

[LessDirty]

Yeah your right, spider gears and their carrier is much lighter than a spool right? Thats what your saying right? How convienent you left out the carrier.


Next, I want you to ponder something..........if I'll go out and spend in excess of $120 - $150 for titanium vavle hardware to save weight measured in grams yet is no safer, is it worth $150 to save pounds of wieght yet insure your safty as well as others. We are talking about mass that's traveling in a complete circle 10 to 45 times per second with extreme stress as it propels a 4000+ lb truck.

I can't believe we are still talking about this. Maybe you know something I don't. Like I said before......your going to go out and do whatever you want anyways all I can do is tell you what I know to be true.

Best of luck!

 

[Bronco638]

LessDirty,
The limited slip diff was an option in the Explorers. Most soccer mommies wouldn't know what a limited slip diff was if it hit them on the head. Since these trucks were marketed to Suburban Weekend Warriors, most do not have the L/S. However, if you're aware of poeple "giving them away", I'm sure lots of Forum members would be willing to be recipients!

Also, you may want to post a write-up on your over-load clutch pack mod. I'm sure some member here would be interested.

Thanks, Dave.

 

[LessDirty]

Thanks Dave for your input. I plan on doing a FULL story on the clutch over pack. I think it should and will be made into a sticky due to its important application here.

Your right that many Explorers may not have the L/S.......I am not sure of the production numbers but I would assume your right. I would think however that the later models (96 +) do have them. If I remember correctly, most every 5.0L came with a L/S and 3.73 gears and was standard in every "trailor towing package". These years carry the same 8.8 as 91-94 Exploders.

Even further, this is the same 8.8 that came in Rangers, T-birds, and Mustangs. If I wanted to find a L/S, its easy to do. What makes this mod SO SWEET, is the fact that you can find a "race car mustang" in most every town in this country. They would have pulled the L/S out and it will be sitting in their garage in the corner.

Coming from the "hot rod" world, I can tell you that we are truely lucky to have SO many 8.8's with L/S out there. There are literally MILLIONS! Compare that to dudes that want to find some type of stk traction device for a Mopar 8 3/4 rear end, or a Ford 9", or a 12 bolt GM. These stk L/S parts go for BIG BIG money while the 8.8 stuff goes for pennies and in some cases someone will give it to you for free.

When I do my write up on the mod, I will have a "free" L/S for anyone that wants it, and considering we have 6-8 members here that are from Houston, I expect it to go quick. The rebuild will take 1 hr. and reinstallation will take 2hrs. I suspect that complete cost of all part and fluids will be $50 to $65 to include 1.5 qts of Royal Purple 75w140 synth gear oil also refered to as synth GL5.

The L/S rebuild kit can be purchased from any Ford dealership or Motorsport dealer as well as a few companies that make these parts aftermarket. There are some new friction materials that are "suppose" to be better than stk and some new steels that are "anti warping". I never had prob with the Ford stuff so thats all I've used.

There are also numerous articals writen on the same topic on any and ALL Mustang forums. The most popular would be The Corral (I am not a member there). I will not cut and paste an old artical, but will start fresh and try to explain each and every detail.......but its just not hard.

Kudos to the dude that wrote that artical on moding the stk transmission in detail........I tried to follow it......wheeeew . That dude either has too much time on his hands, is a trans guy by trade, or has an obsessive compulsive disorder! I would have never done all that and will / am interested in the 700R4 adaption. I wish they would have used the 200 instead but I'll take what I get and like it!

All in all, good job in thinking out of the box to members of this forum who dare to try the impossible.......you guys have some pretty smart members here and those that have the priviledge to be here are lucky!

 

[GJarrett]

I think both shafts are the same, in fact you can swap Ranger axles into a Mustang for a cheap and easy 5 bolt pattern swap. I think the shaft size difference is the diffrence between IRS and non-IRS. Don't ask me which is which, but as far as I know the straight 8.8's are all the same other than widths.

WRONG. Both shafts are not the same. Explorers have 7/8" shafts, the others have 3/4" shafts. IRS has absolutely nothing to do with it.

And I agree, I think a writeup on souping up the clutchpack would be of interest to several members here.

 

[Jefe]

WRONG. Both shafts are not the same. Explorers have 7/8" shafts, the others have 3/4" shafts. IRS has absolutely nothing to do with it.

And I agree, I think a writeup on souping up the clutchpack would be of interest to several members here.

I thought it was 97 or so that they switched the Explorer shaft to a 7/8".

 

[LessDirty]

GJ.....okay, thats fine, but how do you explain the swap for Mustang owners to the Ranger axles? If IRS has nothing to do with it, what size is the shaft in the Explorer IRS as opposed to the T-Bird IRS to the Cobra's 8.8 IRS?

I am not argueing just asking.........

I would assume the Ranger has the same rear as the Ploder so a person would assume its the same.........but you know what they say about assuming.

 

[Jefe]

GJ.....okay, thats fine, but how do you explain the swap for Mustang owners to the Ranger axles? If IRS has nothing to do with it, what size is the shaft in the Explorer IRS as opposed to the T-Bird IRS to the Cobra's 8.8 IRS?

I am not argueing just asking.........

I would assume the Ranger has the same rear as the Ploder so a person would assume its the same.........but you know what they say about assuming.

I KNOW my 8.8 is 7/8" since thats the powertrax I bought. And FYI (and confuse the subject more) most Rangers have a 7.5" rear as opposed to the 8.8"

 

[spindlecone]

Yeah your right, spider gears and their carrier is much lighter than a spool right? Thats what your saying right? How convienent you left out the carrier.
Is no pic of the carrier because when I installed the powertrax unit the directions said nothing about removing it,I hope I did the right thing by leaving it in

 

[LessDirty]

Spindle.....I am sure you did the proper thing. But I think you took my ranting out of context when you followed up my posting by showing a picture of a few gears and claiming that they weigh only 3 lbs.

You happend to show 3 lbs of gears when I just said a spool was lighter and safer than welding gears. By buying a $150 spool you can create RPM quicker and have less mass to move........

I assumed you were trying to make a point by saying I was way off target.........it was a misunderstanding on my part because you were NOT saying that at all. However with no text with your picture I thought you were taking a shot at my post.

When you weld the gears, you have a pretty heavy piece on your hands as compared to a light spool.

And once again, I am not sure the % of 8.8 to 7.5 rear in Rangers, I do know that folks swap the axles though. There are many write ups on the swap. I didn't even know they had different shaft sizes.......

I guess when I have nothing better to do I will look that up and report on that too; maybe intergrate it into my post on how to over clutch a stk 8.8 L/S.

 

[spindlecone]

Less, I was in no way taking a shot at you, you obviously know what your taking about and I agree, a writeup on overcluching would be informative
As to welding spiders, granted, is backyard mechanics fodder, dangerous I agree,but in the 60s when I was breaking ford intercepter trannys weekly ( good ones cost 20 bux at the wreckers) that was alot of money, thus welding spiders was the way to go as it cost nothing and it worked, to a point

 

[LessDirty]

yeah, I know that guys use to do it all the time. I also use to watch guys heat up N20 bottles with open flames, use a jack (leaking even) as a jack stand, or other silly things that are just things that drive me nuts!

I'll make time soon to do my mod and artical, I promise.

 

[GJarrett]

I thought it was 97 or so that they switched the Explorer shaft to a 7/8".

Nope.... pre '97s have them too. Where'd you hear that? I'm 99.9% sure that (with the possible-but-not-likely exception of an extremely rare early-run '91) any '91 and later Explorer with a straight axle in the rear is gonna have a 31 spline 7/8" shaft.

Most Rangers have a 7.5 rear; depending on year and option package some do have an 8.8 but it is a 28 spline 8.8, the same as comes in Mustangs.

 

[LessDirty]

GJ.....thats for the advice, I don't take it personal. I however also want to say that if you reread this entire thread I DID say that I was unsure of the diffrence in each rear end.

By prefacing that I was unsure, it would lead a reader to understand that they need to look a bit deeper into this. I even say that I didn't know everything, but I did know that over clutching is a good idea and cheap AND that welding spider gears is bad.

Its funny to me that you key in on the difference between the 8.8's and not the welding of rear gears.......of which you never chimed in on.

I will do a seperate artical just like we discussed and now I will do an artical just on 8.8 rear ends.......what is swap-able and what is not. (yes I did make up a word there!)

Lastly, I can't swear to you how long the clutches last but I can tell you that they don't wear out once a year. If you run the proper friction modifier in with the GL5, they last longer and won't churp on every turn but if you don't they churp like a flock of seagulls and WILL wear the tires funny. I run 7 clutches with NO modifier in my Coupe.......if any of the members want a ride in it to see what they think, I invite them over. (8 members here live in Houston) My clutched rear end has been in there for 4 years........no rebuild needed.......BUT I only drive the car for about 5000 to 10,000 a year. WHile those are not many miles, please also know that there are ALOT of launches on that car (trans-brake with N2O).

GJ, once again, I thank ya'll for having me at your site. I will continue to ONLY stick my nose in where I can help. I will also make sure I will preface anything I say with "I KNOW FOR SURE WITHOUT ANY DOUBT......." or the "I AM UNSURE BUT IF I WERE TO GUESS BASED UPON MY YEARS OF DOING THIS........." to keep the info as pure as possible. I too want only the best info for these guys.

And by the way.....I did not start this thread, I just wanted to help.

 

[old mechanic]

10.9-130MPH with welded spider gears on a heavy modded 1930? chopped and channeled pickup truck with a seat belt and a tranny blow shield. Hey thats all we had then.
Dangerous? YUP!
Altho I and all others lived thru it (on straight runs) I wouldn't recommend it for road use. Many farmers did that to their unregistered trucks that were used strictly for off road farm work.

 

[GJarrett]

LessDirty, I'm going back and editing the harshness and attitude of my last post some, I got hit real hard with several unrelated personal issues and made the mistake of posting replies that night with much more severity than was deserved... I think that's called "kicking the dog to take your frustrations out even though the dog is innocent" if you know what I mean.

As far as how long the clutchpacks will last, the old "rule of thumb" is supposed to be 30,000 miles and I drive that in a year (I have a '99 with over 155,000 miles on it) and stuffing more in will logically make it wear faster. However, I swapped mine out to put a locker in at 60,000 miles and the clutchplates still had facing on them, so at twice the 30,000 mile mark mine was still operational. I agree that none of us really know how long they will truly last when modified.

I do believe what I posted, but I had no place writing it or wording it that way. Please accept my apology and remember that I know too that we all are always learning something new, certainly myself included, I didn't know this stuff before working on my own vehicles and studying an awful lot of posts on this and other websites.

 

[LessDirty]

No no no....I didn't take it that way at all. Its always good to tread lightly when your the new guy.....in this case I am the new guy.

If you drive 30,00 a year this isn't for you.......I drive 1.5 miles to work and 1.5 miles home everyday. Over clutching is perfect for me and so are 4.56 gears.

The onlt thing I can add to this forum is the fact that I see cars everyday so I have an inside to mechanics; I also have an ALLDATA system so I can look stuff up for guys here. Lastly, I come from the "hotrod" side of the house so I figured there are some tricks we use that off road guys could use too.


I am good at suspension mods and logic; 4 link, 5 link, panhard, 3 link, lateral leaf, leaf, and so on.....I've seen it all. Not so good on the "lift" thing yet but give it time. I have some killer ideas that I haven't ever shared here as well......ie a stk Explorer rear 4 link to a 3 link to allow for more travel.

I am also known for building some killer motors. I don't know too many guys that can get as much power on such a budget as I can. I can usually dis-spell old wives tells and can lead folks the right way. Esp. if it comes to 302's in folk's Explorers.

I am just happy to be here and add when I can.......I will make sure to say what I know to be fact and when I am giving my "best guess". I think you gave good guidence as to always try and support these guys with the best TRUE info and not lead anyone astray.

I hope the best for you...........and if anyone needs me here in Houston, I am easy to find!