Headlights | Page 2 | Ford Explorer Forums

  • Register Today It's free!

Headlights

After reading a few additional websites, it appears the legality of lighting can simply depend on how annoying the lighting is...

That's the way I approach it. If you're not upsetting others and not bringing attention to yourself unnecessarily, you should be OK.
 



Join the Elite Explorers for $20 each year or try it out for $5 a month.

Elite Explorer members see no advertisements, no banner ads, no double underlined links,.
Add an avatar, upload photo attachments, and more!
.





I will probably get a bashing for this, but......

I have done alot of research into HID conversions and have come to the conclusion that putting HID bulbs into a halogen housing will absolutly result in a poorer light output.

The reason as I understand it is that a halgen uses a straight filament and an HID uses an arc and as such the headlight housings will not properly reflect the light. This is why you do not see an oem HID that is not used with a projector.

The light that is reflected to the road will be brighter than a halogen, but the actual amount of light (coverage) will be reduced. And I do not believe that you can put an HID into a halogen housing and not produce a glare into oncoming traffic without cranking the headlights down so far that you will only see a few feet ahead of you.

Here is some very interesting reading material for anyone who is intrested in better lighting, not just the cool factor.

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html

And here is the forum discussion where I found the link:

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49029

I really would like a set of HID lights, but I believe a projector housing is an absolute must.
 






i agree with goldbob on this one so bash us both haha. when i had mine in the arc was on the bottom of the bulb which refects more light to the bottom reflector area. so more light shines up into the other drivers eyes. a standard bulb puts light out in a 360 into the reflector where as a hid focuss more light on 180degrees of the reflector. thats why they use projectors for hids to aim the light and control it
 






You won't get bashed because it's common knowledge that HID kits should be used with caution. I personally like using HID, but I take a lot of time to tweak them. Everyone should.

I know of one fairly well known supplier who was told to cease and desist selling HID kits. I don't think the authorities are actively pursuing enforcement of HIDs, but it does happen. In their case, it's apparent someone complained. Probably a competitor!

I tell you one thing, my new projector headlights are miles ahead of my old Diamond Cut headlights for a way better beam pattern. Nowhere near as good as an OEM projector, but cost me way less, didn't have to deal with retrofit hassle and the beam pattern is very good. Very little in the way of light scatter.
 






That's the way I approach it. If you're not upsetting others and not bringing attention to yourself unnecessarily, you should be OK.

This was my point exactly as to why I stated the glaring statute.

I promise you the mere fact of putting an HID bulb in a conventional halogen housing is not illegal.

It's how the beam (or lack there of with an HID bulb in a halogen housing) is dispersed.

You can have halogen bulbs that glare.

Just because the box says off road use only does not make it illegal.

Just as a side note if you don't know the statute don't go spouting off to people that things are illegal when they are truly not.
 






Just because the box says off road use only does not make it illegal.

Just as a side note if you don't know the statute don't go spouting off to people that things are illegal when they are truly not.

This well known automotive lighting supplier that was ordered via Court Order to cease and desist selling HID kits because of the legality issue. This is an online supplier that sold to all 50 states and Canada.

I still don't think they're "legal" in most jurisdictions.

Do I care?

Nada.
 






This well known automotive lighting supplier that was ordered via Court Order to cease and desist selling HID kits because of the legality issue. This is an online supplier that sold to all 50 states and Canada.

I still don't think they're "legal" in most jurisdictions.

Do I care?

Nada.

name the company and the court that issues the order. It will be public record so we can find some verification.

Again, if you are going to come to the table stating something is illegal bring proof. I don't want anecdotal well my girlfriend/ i know this company, blah blah blah. Specific statutes and paragraph numbers. You have 50 states to choose from, well 49 as I live in Ky and know for a fact there is no law prohibiting HID (xenon) bulbs from being used in standard housings.
Yes there is a law when it comes to glaring but it makes no mention of the how the beam is dispersed (HID vs. conventional halogen) only the end results.

I have come up with specific statue and paragraph info. If you are going to continue to attempt to persuade people that something is illegal bring the statute to the table. If it's a law there will be a statute. Like I said you have 49 states to search all I am asking for is one.
 






name the company and the court that issues the order. It will be public record so we can find some verification.

Again, if you are going to come to the table stating something is illegal bring proof. I don't want anecdotal well my girlfriend/ i know this company, blah blah blah. Specific statutes and paragraph numbers. You have 50 states to choose from, well 49 as I live in Ky and know for a fact there is no law prohibiting HID (xenon) bulbs from being used in standard housings.
Yes there is a law when it comes to glaring but it makes no mention of the how the beam is dispersed (HID vs. conventional halogen) only the end results.

I have come up with specific statue and paragraph info. If you are going to continue to attempt to persuade people that something is illegal bring the statute to the table. If it's a law there will be a statute. Like I said you have 49 states to search all I am asking for is one.

You're splitting hairs borderline on trolling and I'd rather not play your game. That being said, I'm never one to run away with my tail between my legs either. :D

The evidence I mentioned of a well known business is not anecdotal per se. I've done business with these guys in the past (not HID related) and I almost scored a kit for my fogs from them. They used to sponsor Group Buys on many automotive forums and HID kits were a high profile item for them (several EF members have their kits).

I just checked their website and they're still don't carry HIDs. I'd rather not divulge the name of the Company because I don't know if they want the negative publicity through a message board pissing match. Other members can publicize their name if they want to, but I'd rather not.

I do want to correct statements I made earlier as this happened over a year ago and my memory fails me often. They were not "ordered" to cease selling as mentioned earlier (my mistake). The owner did not divulge those details with us, but they suddenly stopped selling kits on their site with the statement on their website in early 2008:

"Mystery Co. has ceased sales of HID headlight kits. It has been determined that the HID kits may not comply with one or more government requirements. Thus, they are not permitted for sale even if the HID kit is intended solely for off-road use."

For years they always had the same generic "not for offroad use" disclaimers on their site that all other sellers use, so the fact they suddenly quit selling them had us drawing our own conclusions about what happened and it was "assumed" they ran afoul of one or many laws. IMHO, that statement was probably written by their legal counsel (I've used corporate counsel to draft similar public statements in the past as well and this one reeks of a lawyer's penmanship).

All I know is, these guys stopped selling HIDs suddenly and without warning and chose not to share the details of their decision publicly. I'm certain that ceasing the sales of HID kits was something they didn't want to do because this was a good revenue source for them and they were a great seller of these kits. Great pricing and excellent support is their philosophy and a lot of people I know like their kits.

I think this snippet pretty much says it all (sorry, no source noted....Google it if you want to):

Are HID's legal?

Installing HID's into a vehicle not originally equipped with them from the factory is technically illegal. Practically speaking, you stand little chance of being cited for them provided you educate yourself on the requirements of HID lighting and take the necessary steps to ensure you have the right equipment and adjustments to keep it safe. That is, make sure your vehicle's headlight assembly uses an appropriately designed projector lense (as opposed to a reflector), and of course that your headlights are properly aligned after installation.

Many newer vehicles use projector lenses because stock halogen bulbs also benefit from the "light shaping", but having just any old projector lense does not necessarily ensure that the beam pattern will be correct. It is absolutely essential for HID's to give the light output a sharp cutoff line to prevent blinding oncoming traffic. As HID's become more popular, aftermarket projector housings are being produced for some vehicles.

The Department of Transportation (DOT) states that improperly-installed HID's are getting a lot of complaints. Vendors will usually include a disclaimer that they are intended for offroad use only, but it's no secret that people don't follow this rule. Now, there are a lot of aftermarket automotive parts that qualify as illegal but aren't strictly enforced.

Logically, the safety implications of blinding oncoming drivers are more serious than, say, an exhaust that exceeds the legal noise level. So the DOT has actively gone after vendors of HID conversion kits, threatening monetary fines if they continue selling them, and consequently there are now fewer places to buy them.

Be responsible. Do your research. Nearly every vehicle make and model imaginable has an enthusiast community on the web. The people there take this kind of stuff seriously and can help you understand the HID requirements for your car.
 






well i am by no means trolling just trying to get people to stop spreading non-truths. It comes up every HID thread no matter what board you are on.

You and I are coming closer to the middle point agreeing on the subject.
My qualm with the whole argument was brought up that is that it is illegal to put an HID Bulb in a non projector housing. This is simply not the case
I have stated that when done incorrectly HIDs can and will get you a ticket. But it can also be done and conform to that of the regulations set in and of the states that enforce the laws.

Your argument for well it can be used illegally so we are going to stop selling them is moot as well from a criminal standpoint.
Take a look at off road mid pipes. It is illegal to remove functioning catalytic converters from street driven vehicles.
How many midpipes are sold without catalytic converters?

I promise you the cease and desist did not come from a court of law. As you stated it may very well have come from the companies law department, for repercussions coming from the civil side of things not criminal. Civil and Criminal are two totally different ball games. Now a days you can be Civilly be sued for pretty much anything. If it were there would be no companies that could sell HIDs. Because if I owned a company and got a cease and desist letter yet there are still hundreds maybe even thousands of vendors selling them. I would be in the appeals court lickity split until I regained the right to sell my product or everyone else got a cease and desist letter. Obama hasn't been in office long enough, Capitalism is still in the works here and a cease and desist letter of that fashion would by no means be legal

I don't want you to think this is a personal pissing match with you. It just bothers me when people swear up and down about something but come to the table with no valid proof. State Statutes are very simple to search online.
I would love to be proven wrong. I have no problems with it, but anecdotal stories don't bring any proof. Bring a state statute, just one and I will concede the discussion.

Again a state statute not a DOT regulation because we are not dealing with commercial motor vehicle in this issue. But even as such I would like to see a DOT regulation stating an HID bulb cannot be placed in a nonprojector housing.
 






the whole argument was brought up that is that it is illegal to put an HID Bulb in a non projector housing. This is simply not the case.

Your argument for well it can be used illegally so we are going to stop selling them is moot......

I promise you the cease and desist did not come from a court of law. As you stated it may very well have come from the companies law department....

.....But even as such I would like to see a DOT regulation stating an HID bulb cannot be placed in a nonprojector housing.

For the record:

I have never made the distinction between aftermarket HID kits in projectors vs. non-projectors. My assertion is that ALL aftermarket kits regardless of how they're housed can get you into trouble....technically (and are most likely "illegal" in most jurisdictions). Then again, so is spitting on the sidewalk. The odds of you getting caught with them are slim to none. I'm not sure why you're hammering me on the projector vs non-projector thing. I see no distinction between the two other than the fact projectors give you a better, and safer light pattern (speaking from experience).

Once again, I stated that there was no cease and desist with this company (I corrected myself) but that the Company chose not to sell them and the decision came out of nowhere. The Company was always a trusted seller of HID kits and promoted Group Buys all over the web. To suddenly stop selling a very lucrative product line would not be a decision taken lightly and it's likely they did so under legal advice from their counsel. Trust me, this Company would not have their own legal department. I work for a $50 million/year company and we don't have our own legal department. This company is MUCH smaller. They're a small Company, owner managed.

In all likelihood they were dealing with higher powers, i.e. "the man". My interpretation of events was that someone from the DOT or similar body came down on them and came down hard for selling HID kits and they unwillingly chose to discontinue selling the products under advice from counsel. They probably could have fought it, but do you honestly think they'd win? The cost is prohibitive (especially when dealing with Government). Yes, there are others out there selling them, but that doesn't mean the DOT would accept that argument. They'd simply shut down those operations too in due course. Most people wouldn't fight it because it's a slippery slope in a court of law and the only people who benefit are the lawyers.

Are you saying you'd fight a speeding ticket with the argument?:

"Well Your Honour, everyone else was speeding that day, therefore I should get off for that reason".

Sadly, so many rules only get enforced by someone complaining. Chances are, someone filed a complaint with the DOT (or similar) against them and events unfolded that resulted in them not selling them anymore to appease the authorities.

Once again, this is my educated opinion of what happened based on my experience dealing with government bodies at many levels. I've been a senior finance guy at many companies big and small and this situation reeks of shakedown by some government heavy which led to them not selling anymore and the note on their website was done under duress. There is no way these guys wanted to stop selling these things because they were and remain a viable business with a great reputation and this was a huge revenue source for them. They knew what they were selling and probably used the "someone else is selling it, why can't I?" argument with whomever came down on them.

As you said, we agree on the core issue in that HID kits are fine as long as they're set up properly. I think you're a tad naive to think that aftermarket HID kits aren't in the crosshairs of the authorities just about everywhere. Unlike those other "illegal" mods you cite, HID kits are very dangerous in the hands of inexperienced installers or people who simply don't care about the safety of others. I've been personally blinded by ricer punks with their blue and purple lights. Luckily, nothing transpired other than temporary blindness, but I'm one person. Being blinded while on the road can and probably has caused countless accidents. A noisy muffler is just an inconvenience and a nuisance so I don't view them in the same "light" (pun intended).
 






FWIW, I think this link gives some good insight into the interpretation of how HID kits are dealt with by law enforcement authorities in the US and how Federal Law is applied in these cases. Those letters from the NHTSA are pretty informative. I've heard these sources paraphrased in some form or another countless times.

NHTSA Letter 1

NHTSA Letter 2

NHTSA Letter 3
 












From 2004 - :)

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-10-19-headlight-recall_x.htm

On one hand they say hands off, on the other hand they lay down the law... confusing.
'
Sounds to me a LOT like what probably happened to "Mystery Co". Replace all references of DOT to NHTSA in my previous discussions (I'm Canadian after all, neither apply to me, but we've got our own bureaucracies). ;)

Check this one out from here (circa 2007):

NHTSA Cracks Down on Aftermarket HID Conversion Kits

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is targeting high-intensity discharge (HID) conversion kits for enforcement actions. NHTSA has concluded that it is impossible to produce HID conversion kits (converting a halogen system to HID) that would be compliant with the federal lighting standard, Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 108. The noncompliant kits frequently include a HID bulb, a ballast, an igniter, a relay and wiring harness adapters. The NHTSA believes this equipment presents a safety risk to the public since the kits can be expected to produce excessive glare to oncoming motorists. In one investigation, the NHTSA found that an HID conversion headlamp exceeded the maximum allowable candlepower by over 800%.

Under FMVSS No. 108 Section S7.7 (replaceable light sources), each replaceable light source for headlamps must be designed to conform to the dimensions and electrical specifications for the headlamp source it is intended to replace. For example, if an HID kit is marketed as replacing an H1 light source, then it must match the H1's wire coil filament size and location, the electrical connector size and location and the ballast design for use with an H1 light source (which is impossible since there is no ballast). Consequently, companies that are manufacturing HID light sources (e.g., D1S, D1R, D2S, D2R, 9500, etc�) with incandescent light source bases (e.g., H1, H3, H7, H8, H9, H11, H13, HB1, HB2, HB3, HB4, HB5, etc�) should be aware that this light source design would not be one that conforms to FMVSS No. 108, and could not be imported and sold in the United States without violating Federal law. (The importer is treated as the manufacturer and subject to the same fines and penalties that apply to a domestic manufacturer.)

NHTSA has also determined that a commonly used disclaimer "for off-road use only" has no legal meaning and is not recognized by the agency as the manufacturer, importer and retailer are not in a position to control use once a product has been sold. Any equipment offered for sale which is covered by FMVSS No. 108 (headlamps, taillamps, side markers, etc.) must comply with the standard.
 






Alright I was wrong on the Federal Statute.
But still you as a non-commercial vehicle are not going to fall under the NHTSA or DOT regulations. Being that non commercial is regulated to the states. That's why I ask for a state statue.

As for your news article if the company wanted to take the time to fight it, yes they would win in court.
There are plenty of applications that can be cited that the NHTSA have no authority. But being they only sold 150 kits. It's not worth it to them. Now a company like McCullough or Sylvania, I can guarantee they would be in court quicker than one can blink an eye.

The only basis is that it "CAN" be dangerous and is very weak. Not says the liberals don't try it all the time and it's only going to get worse as Obama rolls us along to Socialism.

Please don't get me wrong I don't mind being wrong and I'll give you the Federal Regulations. Granted I hate loosing in court but I always take it as a learning experience. Just lets me know how I can make my cases stronger in the future.
 






At the end of the day, HID kits aren't going away. I consider myself a responsible, law abiding citizen, but I don't lose sleep over having HIDs. I'm a big fan of them...if they're set up right.
 






Each state will be more or less tolerant than another based on the type of terrain one encounters. Such would be the case in Wyoming v. New York: Where NY would say too bright, Wyoming would say no problem due to vast open areas and dark roads, harsher Winters, etc... I have a neighbor here in Irvine that has no reason to have HIDs on the headlights and foglights... He's just an a$$ looking for problems. Unless he can't see the road due to his poor vision, he's just an a$$.

But I have to tell you that President Obama is not the beginning of the road for Socialism... it started under Pres. Bush, Sr. (and I adore the man)... but go back in history to see where this started... Socialism started before Barak was a Senator.
 












They aren't state laws that ban HID bulbs, they are county, city, town etc ordinances and when such are not in place police can revert to the "glare" law. It all comes down to if the cop wants to make his town $150 etc, because even if you take it to court, you will lose. Why do you think the high-end cars that come with these stock are automatically leveling? They lower themselves going over bumps, and down hills.

And just stating you aren't trolling doesn't make your posts anything but such. You want others to post information for you when you had it sitting right in front of you as you posted it yourself. Unless your halogen housing has the device to lower the beam automatically then you can be ticketed for it. And privately owned vehicles and drivers must still fall under NHTSA requirements. Afterall the standardized field sobriety test was put together by the NHTSA, and baby car seats are governed by this as well, neither of which are commercial vehicles.
 






LOL yeah i think i am just going with the Sylvania lights. Thanks for everyone's input
 



Join the Elite Explorers for $20 each year or try it out for $5 a month.

Elite Explorer members see no advertisements, no banner ads, no double underlined links,.
Add an avatar, upload photo attachments, and more!
.





Featured Content

Back
Top