I think it finally died

[F SANE IL]

How about this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2005-2006-2...er&hash=item463d15f5e3&vxp=mtr#ht_2015wt_1362

This motor keeps popping up, but its from a 2005 and will not work for the 2006-2008 line of explorers

 

[Tech By Trade]

Why not, anything sohc after 02 should fit just fine. Just need to swap sensors, intake injectors and valve covers. Should be identical.

 

[F SANE IL]

Planning on doing the following upcoming weekend:
1. Check compression
2. Read DTC
3. Not sure if I can rent oil pressure tool, will try and check. BTW, where's the sending unit? Driver wheel well or under intake?
4. Open valve covers and inspect chains and guides again.
5. Remove oil pan, (can this be done without picking up engine?) and inspect pickup and pump once I remove both. Also check whatever drives the pump. I'm thinking I can re-use oil pan gasket as it's been changed when they did my chains.

Anything else I should check while I'm in there?
I'll report back with findings before ordering parts or engine. Hoping for the best.

UPDATE:

So, I did a few things and tests, not all
1. Checked compression on a cold block since I couldn't run it much due no oil. All cylinders show 210psi with the exception of #1 200psi and #2 190 psi.
2. There are no error codes, the only thing i have is the oil like constantly turned on, now that I think of it, that should be considered a trouble code and maybe needs resetting to test things
3. I decided not to open the valve covers and start at the bottom since my train of thought is that there is engine noise at the top (no oil) and oil light is on constantly (no oil or no pressure)
4. I replaced the oil pressure switch to rule out the fact that it just died, also to attempt and get the most accurate reading with a new switch and using the Torque App on my phone paired with a Bluetooth ODBII. For some reason this didn't work. Maybe the Bluetooth adapter is incapable of reading oil pressure switch readings.
5. Went to open up the oil pan and realized that it consists of 2 layers. The bottom and the top oil pan. I only opened the bottom oil pan and boy did i find stuff. There were some plastic debris and all sorts of junk from either the old timing chain guides or possibly the newly installed guides blew up. there were metal shavings and then there were metal pieces like ones you would see if you slice a real thin layer of metal off. It looks like it was maybe the chains rubbing on something and chopping it off. The pickup tube was completely clogged, to the point where if you were using this thing to breathe, you'd probably suffocate. I took off the pickup, used screw drivers and such to take out the chunks of plastic guides again, used carb cleaner to get smaller particles and its perfectly clean. I re-installed the pump, put in a new pan gasket, changed oil filter and poured a jug of new oil equivalent to 5qt.

Motor started up and there is much less noise now. At this point, I only hear the chains and mainly the front. So it seems like there is oil flow now and its actually getting to the top or at least a little. The oil light is still on solid which I'm not sure if its low pressure from the pump or do I need to reset the light? I'm pretty sure if the pressure is good, the light will just go out by itself.
I'm not sure if the reason there is noise from the chains it due to either still not enough oil pressure to keep the tensioners fed enough with oil and that makes sense in my mind since the oil light is ON. In which case i should go back under the motor, take off both layers of the oil pan and replace the oil pump and test again. On the other hand, maybe the guides are dead already and I'd need to replace them yet again to rid of the chatter noise, but then why would the oil light still be on?

As I said, at this point it seems like the only noise is from the chains, oil light is still on. Should I continue to experiment and get an oil pump to see if I can at least get the oil light to turn off or should I give up and look for another motor?

Flag Gibby - Thanks in advance for all your help!!

PS. got some pics before and after, will need to post later as I'm unable to do it from work computer.

 

[F SANE IL]

Why not, anything sohc after 02 should fit just fine. Just need to swap sensors, intake injectors and valve covers. Should be identical.

I thought only 2006-2008 will fit...

 

[Tech By Trade]

after 02 they are all the same. Word on the street is the Mustang had different injectors. The 2wd, stangs, and rangers had no balance shaft, other than that its all the same.

 

[F SANE IL]

after 02 they are all the same. Word on the street is the Mustang had different injectors. The 2wd, stangs, and rangers had no balance shaft, other than that its all the same.

If this is truly the case, I can then most likely get a much cheaper motor. the only problem is that I'm a bit afraid that there would be something different and I'll get stuck and would end up spending more with conversions and sensors, etc... Feel like if things turn for the worse, which I thought is/was the case in the first place, then I'll be looking more into the engine game.

I'm psyched to actually give it one last go and throw an oil pump into this equation and see if it corrects the low oil pressure condition.

 

[Explorer_PL]

On 4.0 - can you replace the oil pump without taking the front off ? On my 4.6 I had my front cover off when I rebuilt the timing, and the oil pump was right there.
At this point I would remove the front cover, check the guides and tensioners and replace the pump and clean it and inspect it more while I am there. I'd say, it should run just fine after that.

 

[pzy3339]

any pictures? I am following your story and would be interested to see what you are seeing.

 

[F SANE IL]

On 4.0 - can you replace the oil pump without taking the front off ? On my 4.6 I had my front cover off when I rebuilt the timing, and the oil pump was right there.
At this point I would remove the front cover, check the guides and tensioners and replace the pump and clean it and inspect it more while I am there. I'd say, it should run just fine after that.

It looks like the pump is inside the upper oil pan. The opening is slightly larger than the oil inlet tube, so the pump will not fit through without taking off the upper pan.
Also, I think the front cover is under a bunch of things. Seems like a very big job. I was thinking of going on the cheap first, unless I had to get in there. Then agsin, what's another gasket....... to change oil pump, I calculate about $130 for pump, upper gasket, and 5qt oil. Maybe the front gasket is $20 most.

 

[F SANE IL]

any pictures? I am following your story and would be interested to see what you are seeing.

Sorry about the pics. I was ready to upload when I got home, but has to take my daughter to the park when I for home, then forgot.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Oil pressure switch

. . .
1. Checked compression on a cold block

Compression is decent with no indication of timing chain slip.

. . .2. There are no error codes, the only thing i have is the oil light constantly turned on . . . 4. I replaced the oil pressure switch to rule out the fact that it just died, also to attempt and get the most accurate reading with a new switch and using the Torque App on my phone paired with a Bluetooth ODBII. For some reason this didn't work. Maybe the Bluetooth adapter is incapable of reading oil pressure switch readings.

Edit: The oil pressure switch output only goes to the instrument cluster. According to the 4th Gen wiring diagrams the instrument cluster communicates with the PCM via the CAN bus. However, the switch activates when the pressure exceeds about 5 psi so the only pressure data available from the PCM would be above or below 5 psi.

Some engines have an oil level sensor and oil temperature sensor in the pan that goes to the message center. I know of one member who had particles from timing chain components block the oil passage to the oil pressure switch. You might try removing the pressure switch and poking something long and slender (stiff wire?) into the passage to see if it is blocked.

Also, there is a plug on the back of the primary guide that blocks a port (green arrow above) to the passage. If the guide is broken off, oil pressure could be lost thru the open port.

. . .There were some plastic debris and all sorts of junk from either the old timing chain guides or possibly the newly installed guides blew up. there were metal shavings and then there were metal pieces like ones you would see if you slice a real thin layer of metal off.

There are spring leaves in the primary and balance shaft (usually only AWD vehicles) chain tensioners. The balance shaft chain tensioner is smaller than the primary chain tensioner and its leaves match your description.

. . .I'm not sure if the reason there is noise from the chains is due to either still not enough oil pressure to keep the tensioners fed enough with oil and that makes sense in my mind since the oil light is ON. In which case i should go back under the motor, take off both layers of the oil pan and replace the oil pump and test again. On the other hand, maybe the guides are dead already and I'd need to replace them yet again to rid of the chatter noise, but then why would the oil light still be on? . . got some pics before and after, will need to post later as I'm unable to do it from work computer.

The oil tube pickup screen should prevent larger particles from reaching the pump. It is a big job to remove and reinstall the block cradle to replace the oil pump and more of a job if you have AWD. Unfortunately, the only available port to measure the oil pressure is for the oil pressure switch. I suggest measuring the pressure before removing the block cradle. If the rear cassette has failed, you should pull the engine to replace it. If you post photos of your pieces we may be able to determine what has failed without you having to pull the valve covers to inspect the cassettes.

 

[F SANE IL]

any pictures? I am following your story and would be interested to see what you are seeing.

I don't think this forum allows upload, so I've uploaded to the web and here are the links.

This is what was in the oil pan. some smaller pieces inside pickup.

This is partially clean, but you can see its all stuffed on the sides. Before i touched it, it was completely clogged.

After i cleaned it and remounted

Cleaned and mounted pickup.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Particles

You have to be an elite member to post photos on the forum. Its only $20 per year and well worth the money in my opinion.

Your plastic particles are pretty small indicating a lot of grinding has been going on. They may have been small enough to get thru the screen and then would reach the oil pump. The oil pump would grind them into a powder due to the small clearances. However, the oil flows directly from the pump to the oil filter and a decent quality filter should catch them unless there are so many to clog the filter and open its bypass. You may want to cut open your filter to see how bad it looks.

I think I recognize the triangle plastic piece as part of the left cassette guide assembly.

I don't see any right cassette guide pieces. I can't tell much about the metal pieces because the oil on them reflects the light. Do you have all wheel drive? I suggest pulling the valve covers to inspect before spending any significant amount of time and money on repairs. See My Helpful Thread: SOHC V6 Timing Chain Inspection & Repair. It's a lot less work to pull the covers on a 4th Gen than on my 2nd Gen.

 

[F SANE IL]

Compression is decent with no indication of timing chain slip.



Edit: The oil pressure switch output only goes to the instrument cluster. According to the 4th Gen wiring diagrams the instrument cluster communicates with the PCM via the CAN bus. However, the switch activates when the pressure exceeds about 5 psi so the only pressure data available from the PCM would be above or below 5 psi.

Some engines have an oil level sensor and oil temperature sensor in the pan that goes to the message center. I know of one member who had particles from timing chain components block the oil passage to the oil pressure switch. You might try removing the pressure switch and poking something long and slender (stiff wire?) into the passage to see if it is blocked.
View attachment 85005
Also, there is a plug on the back of the primary guide that blocks a port (green arrow above) to the passage. If the guide is broken off, oil pressure could be lost thru the open port.

Removing pressure switch is easy, I'll remove and poke the hole this week.
Should i remove the front cover to inspect front guides or is this futile? How likely is that the pump is dead? Is it more likely that the paths are blocked by debris or broken "guide no pressure" condition? Why in the world is it made to lose pressure if guide is broken? (this is crazy design)



There are spring leaves in the primary and balance shaft (usually only AWD vehicles) chain tensioners. The balance shaft chain tensioner is smaller than the primary chain tensioner and its leaves match your description.
View attachment 85006



The oil tube pickup screen should prevent larger particles from reaching the pump. It is a big job to remove and reinstall the block cradle to replace the oil pump and more of a job if you have AWD. Unfortunately, the only available port to measure the oil pressure is for the oil pressure switch. I suggest measuring the pressure before removing the block cradle. If the rear cassette has failed, you should pull the engine to replace it. If you post photos of your pieces we may be able to determine what has failed without you having to pull the valve covers to inspect the cassettes.

My thought process is that if the shop changed all the timing chains/guides, even if they were the cheapest POS on the planet, could they have failed in 2 months and maybe a few hundred miles?

 

[F SANE IL]

You have to be an elite member to post photos on the forum. Its only $20 per year and well worth the money in my opinion.

Your plastic particles are pretty small indicating a lot of grinding has been going on. They may have been small enough to get thru the screen and then would reach the oil pump. The oil pump would grind them into a powder due to the small clearances. However, the oil flows directly from the pump to the oil filter and a decent quality filter should catch them unless there are so many to clog the filter and open its bypass. You may want to cut open your filter to see how bad it looks.

I think I recognize the triangle plastic piece as part of the left cassette guide assembly.
View attachment 85007
I don't see any right cassette guide pieces. I can't tell much about the metal pieces because the oil on them reflects the light. Do you have all wheel drive? I suggest pulling the valve covers to inspect before spending any significant amount of time and money on repairs. See My Helpful Thread: SOHC V6 Timing Chain Inspection & Repair. It's a lot less work to pull the covers on a 4th Gen than on my 2nd Gen.

This does look like the triangle piece.. I'm still clinging to the idea that all these particles are from original guides broken to pieces. The only shocker is that the shop that replaced all the cassettes didn't clean them up. OR! They replaced and cleaned everything, but new guides broke and here we are.

I'll pull the valve covers, but will probably have to do it next week, we'll see how things roll. I'll make sure to update.

 

[Flag Gibby]

I agree with 2000streetrod's posts and he probably has the most experience with this issue of anyone in this forum, if you haven't changed out your oil filter it is most likely plugged with fine particles from the plastic pieces that were trying to plug all your oil passages. Also, I would do what he said about making sure the oil pressure switch passage is not plugged and then I would use an oil pressure tester (rent one from Autozone) to see what the oil pressure is after you change the filter if you haven't. That may give you an idea if the pump is still any good. I am really not liking the guide pieces in the pan either since you said that they were just replaced about 2000 miles ago unless the pan was never cleaned out after the original set of timing chain guides disintegrated.
At this point I would be tempted to get the shop involved that did the work since a failure (if it is) would never happen this quickly unless something was not put back together correctly when they did the work.

Edit: Never mind on the change the oil filter, so much to read that I overlooked you stating that it was changed. Just make sure the oil pressure passage is not blocked and test the oil pressure with a pressure tester.

 

[F SANE IL]

I agree with 2000streetrod's posts and he probably has the most experience with this issue of anyone in this forum, if you haven't changed out your oil filter it is most likely plugged with fine particles from the plastic pieces that were trying to plug all your oil passages. Also, I would do what he said about making sure the oil pressure switch passage is not plugged and then I would use an oil pressure tester (rent one from Autozone) to see what the oil pressure is after you change the filter if you haven't. That may give you an idea if the pump is still any good. I am really not liking the guide pieces in the pan either since you said that they were just replaced about 2000 miles ago unless the pan was never cleaned out after the original set of timing chain guides disintegrated.
At this point I would be tempted to get the shop involved that did the work since a failure (if it is) would never happen this quickly unless something was not put back together correctly when they did the work.

Edit: Never mind on the change the oil filter, so much to read that I overlooked you stating that it was changed. Just make sure the oil pressure passage is not blocked and test the oil pressure with a pressure tester.

guess i'll order the tool from ebay. Autozone doesn't have it in stock and they don't rent it either. at least this is what they told me.

 

[2000StreetRod]

any warranty?

My thought process is that if the shop changed all the timing chains/guides, even if they were the cheapest POS on the planet, could they have failed in 2 months and maybe a few hundred miles?

Did you get a 90 day warranty or longer on the timing chain replacement? If so, why not get the shop involved in correcting your problems.

 

[pzy3339]

Wow

I would be a less than happy customer in your shoes. If those are indeed guide pieces, left over pieces of the old guides or premature failure of the new guides would not matter to me. I would hold the shop responsible for the repair and replacement of anything damaged due to their work. If it is due to a bad part the shop can argue that with their part dealer and/or the part manufacturer.

Thinking "out loud" here....

From my experience there are very few plastic parts inside an engine. It would seem a few people believe they recognize them as parts of the guide. That is a positive identification, saying it could be the guide. I would then think the next step is to take the negative identification approach. What other parts are plastic, and how many of them can you say could not leave behind a triangle piece like that?

Also, with those pieces cleaned off are they still discolored? Maybe brittle? That to me would indicate old parts versus new. I would expect plastic to be stained and possibly brittle after 9 years of hot/cold cycling and being constantly bathed in engine oil.

 

[F SANE IL]

Did you get a 90 day warranty or longer on the timing chain replacement? If so, why not get the shop involved in correcting your problems.

It was replaced last July. After that I had some strange issue that the shop seemed like refused to deal with, not to mention I had no money for yet another fix, after spending $2k

After I figured out that my problem (there was a post about it) was with throttle power plug wires it was past that 90 time. Plus I'm only digging deep into the motor now.