I think it finally died

[Tech By Trade]

All those parts look like their off the rear timing chain guide. Any chance they only replaced the front ones and never pulled the motor to get at the rear one?

 

[Flag Gibby]

For $2k he had better have gotten front and rear done, but I seem to recall him mentioning that all of them were replaced.

 

[2000StreetRod]

not the rear guide

All those parts look like their off the rear timing chain guide. Any chance they only replaced the front ones and never pulled the motor to get at the rear one?

I disagree. There is no triangle shaped piece on the rear guide.

I noticed that F SANE IL's vehicle is 4x4. I do agree that for $2K the front cassette, primary chain tensioner and guide and the balance shaft chain tensioner and guide may have been replaced but the engine was never pulled to replace the rear cassette. If that is true, then either the old pieces were not removed or the front cassette has failed again.

 

[F SANE IL]

All those parts look like their off the rear timing chain guide. Any chance they only replaced the front ones and never pulled the motor to get at the rear one?

They did not pull the motor, I'm pretty sure about this. The motor mount bolts look untouched.

 

[F SANE IL]

For $2k he had better have gotten front and rear done, but I seem to recall him mentioning that all of them were replaced.

It was $2k all together with a bunch of other things. Breakdown was like this

$800 for timing chain job, including the kit that consisted of all parts needed to do the job.
$450 in additional parts that i approved to be replaced as I knew they were bad (Radiator was cracked, water pump was leaking a bit, etc...)
Oh, and they went from the back, pulled out the trans and did not pull motor to swap out the rear chain.

After that, I had a major oil leak (2 weeks later) somewhere from the rear of the motor. This might have been coincidental or direct cause of them messing in the rear of the motor. Regardless, i couldn't prove anything and they charged me $500 to replace rear main seal, saying its a typical break on these cars. So, all in all, its like $2k.

Month after the oil leak the car started shaking as i mentioned before. the motor was in some sort of safe mode or something. Stepping on the gas wouldn't do anything at all. It just rolled 5mph, drove it home like that, then figured out it was the wires on the throttle body plug that were exposed and touching. I fixed it and the oil light came on.

I'm now thinking maybe when they replaced the chains and guides, they didn't clean it properly and the shaking of the motor shook all the particles out, clogging the pickup, having the oil pump work double time to try and pull the oil and thus failing. Possibility?

 

[F SANE IL]

I disagree. There is no triangle shaped piece on the rear guide.
View attachment 85051

I noticed that F SANE IL's vehicle is 4x4. I do agree that for $2K the front cassette, primary chain tensioner and guide and the balance shaft chain tensioner and guide may have been replaced but the engine was never pulled to replace the rear cassette. If that is true, then either the old pieces were not removed or the front cassette has failed again.

I'll definitely go in there next week as my girl and daughter going overseas, I'll have more time to mess with everything. With all your advise, I'm thinking of taking these steps:

1. Take the valve covers off first to see if the chains are tight and if guides are intact.
2. If all looks good up top -> taking the front apart to pull the chain cover off
3. At the same time if I have the front off, I'm thinking I should be able to pull the bottom engine case off to get to the oil pump as well.

Kinda of in the groove now and need to keep going otherwise I get lazy and things just sit around and get old and dusty.

Thanks for all your thoughts, ideas and advise. This is what drives me to keep going.

 

[Tech By Trade]

Never pulled the motor eh, 4x4... I think I know what the problem is. If they didnt pull the engine, they probably couldnt get the upper pan off. You need to lift the engine to get it off and if they didnt pull the mounts there is no way they could have gotten it off. No upper pan off, no change of the balance shaft tensioner or chain. I bet its rattling away. Odds are all that crap was sitting in the upper pan and found its way down after the fact. Good thing is, you could just cut the chain on the balance shaft if everything else is alright and you should have no more noise. Just a hunch.

 

[F SANE IL]

Never pulled the motor eh, 4x4... I think I know what the problem is. If they didnt pull the engine, they probably couldnt get the upper pan off. You need to lift the engine to get it off and if they didnt pull the mounts there is no way they could have gotten it off. No upper pan off, no change of the balance shaft tensioner or chain. I bet its rattling away. Odds are all that crap was sitting in the upper pan and found its way down after the fact. Good thing is, you could just cut the chain on the balance shaft if everything else is alright and you should have no more noise. Just a hunch.

After they fixed everything, the motor was completely quiet. What do you mean by "just cut the chain" I don't need the chains in the motor or just as a test and then replace it with a new chain?

 

[Tech By Trade]

The explorer and sport trac 4x4 uses a balance shaft to offset vibration from the crank. It serves no mechanical purpose otherwise. 2wd, mustang, and ranger engines didnt even have it installed. You cant replace it or its tensioner without pulling the upper pan, and you cant pull the pan without lifting the engine. You don't need it, problem is if that chain breaks and gets caught in the jackshaft chain you have real problems. Some guys have just cut it and pulled it out. although, if i remember correctly it is a double roller, so I don't know what the odds of it breaking are.

I would still pull the valve cover and make sure everything is intact.

 

[F SANE IL]

The explorer and sport trac 4x4 uses a balance shaft to offset vibration from the crank. It serves no mechanical purpose otherwise. 2wd, mustang, and ranger engines didnt even have it installed. You cant replace it or its tensioner without pulling the upper pan, and you cant pull the pan without lifting the engine. You don't need it, problem is if that chain breaks and gets caught in the jackshaft chain you have real problems. Some guys have just cut it and pulled it out. although, if i remember correctly it is a double roller, so I don't know what the odds of it breaking are.

I would still pull the valve cover and make sure everything is intact.

Thanks for the heads up. Not sure what I'm going to do yet. I have an engine crane, but if I need to pull the upper pan, can i suspend the motor without pulling trans? In other words, pick it up a few inches, just to take out the engine mounts. Then pull the pan and then re-install the mounts for safety reason? How is it typically done? I think they pulled the upper pan because he was complaining how they had to take off the pan because of the front chain.

My biggest problem is that I didn't swap the chains myself, otherwise I would be able to answer more questions accurately when you guys pose them. I already know I'm a lazy ass for not doing it myself... :thumbdwn:

 

[Tech By Trade]

step 1, pull the intake off so you can get at the valve covers.
step 2, pull the valve covers and inspect the guides.
If the guides look good and the chains look good continue. If the rear is shot you need to pull the engine, if the front is shot you don't. if all is good continue to step 3.
step 3, pull the fan, fan clutch, water pump and front timing cover. Inspect the tensioners and chains.

This would be the best place to start and no cranes or specialty tools required other than a fan clutch tool.

Ford procedures for all the above can be found at http://search.ebscohost.com/. Password tech username tech. scroll down to the auto repair reference beta and select your year and model of vehicle.

 

[F SANE IL]

step 1, pull the intake off so you can get at the valve covers.
step 2, pull the valve covers and inspect the guides.
If the guides look good and the chains look good continue. If the rear is shot you need to pull the engine, if the front is shot you don't. if all is good continue to step 3.
step 3, pull the fan, fan clutch, water pump and front timing cover. Inspect the tensioners and chains.

This would be the best place to start and no cranes or specialty tools required other than a fan clutch tool.

Ford procedures for all the above can be found at http://search.ebscohost.com/. Password tech username tech. scroll down to the auto repair reference beta and select your year and model of vehicle.

I will get at this ASAP and report back. Thanks again.

 

[F SANE IL]

Wow

I would be a less than happy customer in your shoes. If those are indeed guide pieces, left over pieces of the old guides or premature failure of the new guides would not matter to me. I would hold the shop responsible for the repair and replacement of anything damaged due to their work. If it is due to a bad part the shop can argue that with their part dealer and/or the part manufacturer.

Thinking "out loud" here....

From my experience there are very few plastic parts inside an engine. It would seem a few people believe they recognize them as parts of the guide. That is a positive identification, saying it could be the guide. I would then think the next step is to take the negative identification approach. What other parts are plastic, and how many of them can you say could not leave behind a triangle piece like that?

Also, with those pieces cleaned off are they still discolored? Maybe brittle? That to me would indicate old parts versus new. I would expect plastic to be stained and possibly brittle after 9 years of hot/cold cycling and being constantly bathed in engine oil.

Car has a ton of miles. I'm not really sweating it to much. I've accepted that i got a rotten deal on the car when I got it. Bad deal when I decided to do the guides.
With the $ already spent, i could have bought a new motor and replaced it myself. I was just being lazy at the time. Plus, I didn't have a helping hand.


Ignore this reply everyone, my phone didn't have service when I typed this, then sent automatically

 

[Explorer_PL]

Hey man, don't beat yourself too much.
With used cars it is a gamble at that miles.

I replaced an engine when all I needed was a torque converter. 2 shops were certain without looking deeper that I need new engine since I had 200k at that time. One quoted me 4k, another 6k for a motor.
Do you know how I felt after I put the new motor in and it was making same diesel noise like the old one ?
I was about to cry

 

[F SANE IL]

Hey man, don't beat yourself too much.
With used cars it is a gamble at that miles.

I replaced an engine when all I needed was a torque converter. 2 shops were certain without looking deeper that I need new engine since I had 200k at that time. One quoted me 4k, another 6k for a motor.
Do you know how I felt after I put the new motor in and it was making same diesel noise like the old one ?
I was about to cry

I hear ya. This is mainly why I would love to try and fix this one. Plus, I like the truck. Thanks for the positive thoughts. I just hit 34 too, like 15 min ago. Hope I don't break. Haha.

 

[Explorer_PL]

Lately, I am doing something to my Exp every other weekend. My neighbors are suggesting to change the VIN # since lots of parts are new that there is not much left from the original one, but most of the truck actually holds pretty well, still original shocks, fuel pump, accessories, ...
But it is not an "inexpensive" car to maintain. If I had all the work I did done by shops, I would not have it anymore, it just ate another front hub bearing.

It's a miracle if you find an honest shop that will try to fix it and not replace half of the possible parts.

And yes, it's one of the most versatile, comfortable multipurpose vehicle I have ever had so far, and my kids love it.

 

[Flag Gibby]

Thanks for the heads up. Not sure what I'm going to do yet. I have an engine crane, but if I need to pull the upper pan, can i suspend the motor without pulling trans? In other words, pick it up a few inches, just to take out the engine mounts. Then pull the pan and then re-install the mounts for safety reason? How is it typically done? I think they pulled the upper pan because he was complaining how they had to take off the pan because of the front chain.

Yes, you should be able to get all the clearance you need by just lifting it up an inch or so to be able to pull the motor mounts. See this PDF for a 2004 (yours will be very similar): http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/s420/2010-08-08_211657_04_Explorer_4.0_oil_pan.pdf

 

[F SANE IL]

No updates yet guys. Got drunk and sloppy past weekend celebrating my 34th, so this week should be the one I dive in deep and get some more info.

Last week saw an OEM oil pump on Ebay for $65 and it was new too... should have just bought, but hesitated and now its gone.

 

[Explorer_PL]

Then - Happy B day

 

[Tech By Trade]

you can get the same price new from whitebear in Minesota. That's when I ordered all my OEM parts. Even with shipping to Canada it came close to 1/3 less than local.

http://parts.autonationfordwhitebearlake.com/