Missing off load/Stalling?

[Joe Dirt]

So recently I've been having this issue where if I am cruising, foot on the gas, but just resting, not pushing- just keeping it at speed- it feels like a hesitation, pretty constant but random as far as the pattern. I've always had a rough startup, I believe from by bad Camshaft Position Sensor. It's been throwing a 214 code forever (2 years) but it never affected driveability. Once started, she idled fine, and drove well.

In addition, this morning, it stalled twice, just driving, within 5 minutes of startup. It started fine, no hiccups even, not even the rough startup from my CPS issue. Both times probably running 20mph-ish, just up and quit. Started right back up, and drove to work the rest of the way 6 miles with no issue.

At the lights, I was idling below 500rpm, but it idled fine- not jumping, surging, etc.

the only code I've got is the 214.

I've done the fuel filter, air filter, cleaned the MAF, most all sensors and all that would affect this were changed last year to update them for the hell of it.

Could this be a failing coilpack? I don't think plugs or wires, becasue it would have been a temporary stumble, until the next cylinder fired and pulled it back together. I am waiting to drive it home after work and see what happens, but wondered if anyone had something similar happen, and what I should be looking for...

I'm stumped. Thoughts?

 

[Joe Dirt]

Ok, so Snowball started getting the sniffles again today, and the problem came up twice. Now it is somewhat under load, not under WOT, but just cruising. I turned onto my street, and a casual speed-up turned into a stumbling stall. So it will do it under cruise, and also the most common stall is when I speed up to like 25 on my street, then take my foot off the gas once reaching speed.

I ran codes again, I got the following:

KOEO:

111- Cake & Ice Cream waiting in the house

CM:

214- Error in Cylinder ID (CID) circuit or signal - Ignition Systems (I've had this for 2 years)
332- EGR did not open/respond during test or if memory code, did not open intermittently - EVR or PFE

KOER:

332- EGR did not open/respond during test or if memory code, did not open intermittently - EVR or PFE
536- Brake On Off open or shorted to ground - BOO (I was asleep at the wheel)
632- E4OD - Transmission Control Switch (TCS) should be cycled once between engine ID and Goose test (I was still asleep at the wheel)

I'm thinking a junk DPFE, since it's about a year old, and a Duralast. The IAC was new last year, the EGR is still original Ford at 210k miles, and I have one on the seat waiting if that's what it is...

Bets? Thoughts?

 

[Joe Dirt]

Ok, in the interest of updating my own personal thread, I wanted to post the latest...

I went to Autozone, and replaced both my DPFE and EVR under warranty for the hell of it, and my CEL is still on 10 seconds after startup (yes, I cleared the codes) and it nearly stalled again on the way home. All hoses look good, as well as the EGR vacuum tree. At least the 332 code went away...

EGR next? I'm stumped, I have no EGR codes, but the stalling almost happened again. Am I off on the EGR system? I'm leaving hte battery off overnight just to reset everything.

 

[Joe Dirt]

Today's drive home: Stalling again, once. On corner turn, when foot comes off the gas, and the RPM's drop...

Ran codes tonight, CEL is still on all the time.

KOEO: 111
CM: 214

KOER: 116 (truck was not warmed up all the way)

What's going on with this thing? I know some faults don't throw codes, is it an ignition system problem? Failing coil? Is the cam sensor finally causing problems after 2 years?
This is driving me certifiably nuts...

Anyone?

 

[Willard]

Check the resistance of your coil pack. You should be able to figure out what it is supposed to be around here somewhere. I had similar issues until it got to be a definite miss at one point.

Replaced many of the things you have thinking the EGR or something was at fault, only to find out the coil pack was bad. Another somewhat crude and dangerous way of testing the coil pack is to start pulling wires while it's running to see if it makes a difference in how it runs, however since yours isn't a constant miss that may not work.

Just don't buy regular AZ coil packs, I had one fail in a year or so when I initially replaced it.

 

[Joe Dirt]

Thanks Jesse, I was thinking coil pack a week ago, and diverted to the emission system after the 332 code started popping up. But, That has always been in the back of my mind, moreso now that codes aren't popping up anymore. I have new plugs and wires waiting to go on, I might pick up a coilpack at the junkyard this weekend and try that to see if it goes away. If it does, I'll probably buy a new one and put all new ignition stuff on. At 210k+, it's probably starting to get weak anyway... I'd get a Motorcraft unit from Torrie, I tend to only put Motorcraft stuff on since I don't care for the quality of a lot of aftermarket parts like the Duralast stuff, the only 2 AZ parts I have are the DPFE and EVR, and at least one of them did go bad in the year I owned them. Only reinforces my view I guess...

Thanks for the thoughts...

 

[seldont]

Sounds a lot like the IAC going bad..

 

[Willard]

IAC will not affect how it runs when not idling. Not only that it would not make it feel like a miss, it would merely make the idle speed too low, or too high.

 

[Joe Dirt]

And the IAC is new.

 

[chance942]

Have you ever changed your intake man gaskets? Seems like they go bad on ALL of these trucks.
The idle stays fine at 500? Guess that rules that out. Might check it a bit anyway.

 

[Joe Dirt]

Yep, they were replaced this past summer...

I'm stumped. Are there ignition faults that will show up without codes, and illuminate the CEL? Will a completely failed cam sensor cause this? I thought that was only for startup... The cam sensor never illuminated the CEL all the time, and it's still on- with no codes. Weird. ECU?

 

[chance942]

Yeah you're right about these things driving a fella certified. I had a lot of issues with my fuel pump with no codes or MAL light .Just usin that as a refernce to your question about major problems and no codes. Hope you got a boneyard coil pack today and are gettin somewhere right now.

I've had quite a few users on here tell me that the packs are good and rarely good bad. Not sure I buy that.

If your CPS light issue has changed along with this worsening BS there might be something there.What would happen if you run it up to temp and disconnected the CPS?

In short Joe I do believe that you could be expierencing some BS that the ECU isn't telling you.

You're not nuts my man but you may be section 8 when all is done. Good luck,really.

 

[Joe Dirt]

Driving me nuts.

I walked the junkyard the other day, and pulled a decent enough looking coilpack out of a '99 Ex with an OHV. Put it in, and same thing.

Now a new twist.

Got in this morning, truck cold. Started up, rough idle. If I half-goosed the throttle, it would stumble and bog, then rev up- once revved, it was smooth. Did the same thing for about 1 minute. Then, everything was fine- idle, initial acceleration, and cruising. I'm going to clean the MAF... (Could it be a dying MAF?)

I shut the truck down for about 45 minutes, came out, and it was fine.

I'm clueless at this point.

I can't warm it up and disconnect the CPS, I don't even think I can get my hand in underneath the intake...

The 214 code hasn't really changed in 2 years, except that it didn't illuminate the light. It would throw a code, but it wouldn't pop the CEL. Now the CEL is always on, and I have no idea if it's related or not.

I'm not there yet, but I'm crawling into the padded garage...

 

[Joe Dirt]

This morning-

Started up the truck, same hesitation/bog at throttle goose, and not-so-fresh idle.

I unplugged the MAF, really ran bad. Plugged that back in, unplugged the IAC, ran bad again, almost stalled. Plugged back in, after 1 minute or so of back out, and drive easily- it was fine again.

I think Snowball is just f*****g with me...

 

[Joe Dirt]

Ok, so I'm still lost.

Last night replaced the EGR and the EGR tube. Same thing, same CEL code 327, even after clearing codes.

The only issue driving seems to be the goose issue. I get a bad bog hesitation when I pop the throttle. I don't normally drive like that, but it seems to be an issue now. I've tried spraying brake cleaner all around the intake, and I have no change in engine idle, etc- so I don't think there is a leak. We've checked/replaced the IAC, EGR, DPFE, EVR, MAF, and vac lines.

Anyone fixed a bog like that? We can hear the air suck in when you goose the throttle, and it takes about 1 second for the engine to catch up, and it comes close to stalling. Should I try a junkyard MAF? ECU?

Another thing on the intake gaskets- the ones that seem to always go bad are the recessed multiple single gaskets, and mine is a flat gasket- was the '95 different?

 

[2000StreetRod]

EGR voltage low

. . . Last night replaced the EGR and the EGR tube. Same thing, same CEL code 327, even after clearing codes.

The only issue driving seems to be the goose issue. I get a bad bog hesitation when I pop the throttle. I don't normally drive like that, but it seems to be an issue now. I've tried spraying brake cleaner all around the intake, and I have no change in engine idle, etc- so I don't think there is a leak. We've checked/replaced the IAC, EGR, DPFE, EVR, MAF, and vac lines.

Anyone fixed a bog like that? We can hear the air suck in when you goose the throttle, and it takes about 1 second for the engine to catch up, and it comes close to stalling. Should I try a junkyard MAF? ECU? . . .

In looking thru your past posts I saw no mention of DTC 327: EGR valve pressure transducer/position sensor circuit below minimum value. I don't have any OBD-I system description but it probably isn't much different from the 1996 OBD-II. In OBD-II there is a test for the voltage limits (min & max). Yours is failing the lower limit - its too low.

You said that you replaced the DFPE but I thought all 1995 and earlier years had PFE. For DFPE in OBD-II if the voltage limit test fails then a DTC is set (but no CEL on the first drive cycle) and the EGR system is disabled for the rest of the drive cycle.

When I'm driving my Sport at 25 mph or so and release the accelerator (throttle closes) I can actually hear the EGR valve close. (At first I thought it was the A/C compressor cycling but it wasn't on). When I then depress the accelerator the EGR valve opens back up.

I suspect that the rest of the EGR tests (not opening and not closing) are not being executed because of the lower limit failure.

According to Haynes: "Too much EGR flow tends to weaken combustion, causing the engine to run rough or stop. When EGR is excessive, the engine can stop after a cold start or at idle after deceleration, the vehicle can surge at cruising speeds or the idle may be rough."

EGR problems can be complex. I'll try to help but first I want to be sure which system you have (PFE or DPFE).

 

[BrooklynBay]

Did you ever check the catalytic converter to see if it's partially clogged?

 

[Joe Dirt]

I haven't checked the cats, but I'll take my temp gun to work tomorrow and perch up on the pit and test the temps at each end...

Dale- I guess I don't know- it's probably a PFE. What's the difference in the two? (I'm curious) Anyway, I've put a new one in, and also a new EGR and EGR tube. The CEL comes on religiously every time I drive it, even after clearing the codes. I also changed the EGR system vacuum tree (red green and white tubes) in case something was cracked. We've sprayed everything, no vac leaks, etc...

Tonight I pulled the ECU since I had a spare, and the battery was unplugged for an hour, and the ECU was out anyways. As soon as I put it back in, I tossed on a spare coil I had on the shelf just for craps and giggles, and fired her up. Same thing, CEL came on not 10 seconds into the drive cycle.

Here is a short video of what I've got going on... You can catch the bad cam sensor startup... That's been bad for 2 years, (code 214) and I read that it only affected startup, so I wasn't even considering that an issue here.

Not sure if it's as clear on camera, but when I goose the throttle, there is a major hiccup for about 1 second, where the air loudly rushes in, but nothing happens. Then it catches itself and revs up. If I'm easy into the throttle (in the middle of the vid) there is no problem. I liken it to pulling out of a parking lot or away from a stop sign- that acceleration is where I have issues. It feels like it's going to stall, I know it's not normal. It's just like a drive by wire throttle, only with a little longer lag, if anyone has driven a new F150, that's a similar thing, only this is worse. It also stalled on me in the parking lot at Advance Auto. Backed out, put in drive, slow, stall.

Thoughts? We're stumped. Is it possible that I have a bum IAC, and exchanged it for a bum IAC? I can unplug it, and the truck runs like crap, so I don't think it's bad. Same with the MAF... Unplug- runs somewhat poorly.

I ran codes again tonight- I got a 327- on everything. 327 / 327_214 / 327.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Dtc 214 & 327

. . .
Dale- I guess I don't know- it's probably a PFE. What's the difference in the two? (I'm curious) Anyway, I've put a new one in, and also a new EGR and EGR tube. The CEL comes on religiously every time I drive it, even after clearing the codes. . .
Tonight I pulled the ECU since I had a spare, and the battery was unplugged for an hour, and the ECU was out anyways. As soon as I put it back in, I tossed on a spare coil I had on the shelf just for craps and giggles, and fired her up. Same thing, CEL came on not 10 seconds into the drive cycle.
Here is a short video of what I've got going on... You can catch the bad cam sensor startup... That's been bad for 2 years, (code 214) and I read that it only affected startup, so I wasn't even considering that an issue here.
Not sure if it's as clear on camera, but when I goose the throttle, there is a major hiccup for about 1 second, where the air loudly rushes in, but nothing happens. Then it catches itself and revs up. If I'm easy into the throttle (in the middle of the vid) there is no problem. . .
Thoughts? We're stumped. Is it possible that I have a bum IAC, and exchanged it for a bum IAC? I can unplug it, and the truck runs like crap, so I don't think it's bad. Same with the MAF... Unplug- runs somewhat poorly.

I ran codes again tonight- I got a 327- on everything. 327 / 327_214 / 327.

I see what you mean by the hesitation in neutral which would be more pronounced under load.

PFE: Pressure Feedback EGR system measures the pressure after exhaust gas passes thru the EGR orifice (one hose connection to the EGR tube).

DPFE: Differential Pressure Feedback EGR system measures the difference in pressure before and after the EGR orifice (two hoses connected to the EGR tube).

DPFE is more accurate than PFE.

Your PFE is failing the low voltage limit but not the open or closed test. You need to correct that. Look for corrosion on the electrical connector pins. Try cleaning and checking the electrical connection to reduce electrical resistance. One way to clean the pins is to disconnect then connect several times. If cleaning doesn't help, can you convince Autozone to exchange it under warranty?

The camshaft position sensor (CMP) tells the PCM when to time the fuel injection pulse to the intake valve port. Ideally the pulse should start immediately prior to the start of valve opening. That way the fuel charge is drawn immediately into the cylinder. The spray pattern of injectors are optimized for this timing. If the timing is off because of a bad CMP then the force of the spray pattern is compromised. Also, fuel condenses on the port walls waiting for the intake to open. When the throttle position is rapidly changed, the injector pulse width has to change accordingly. Incorrect CMP data could result in the pulse width change to the cylinder being a whole revolution behind. All three factors combined result in a temporary lean condition at throttle increase. The faster the throttle increase the worse the lean condition. You need to replace the CMP.

A defective IAC valve will not impact the engine except at closed throttle.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Don't loosen CMP clamp bolt

When you replace the CMP don't loosen the drive assembly hold down clamp bolt. If you rotate the drive assembly a special tool is needed to time the sensor. Just remove the two sensor screws, replace the sensor and reinstall the screws.