My 4r70w slips. Help.

[MalcolmV8]

I just did the middle one - EPC. At idle in every gear selection P-R-N-OD-2-1 I got 0 PSI. Even with mild blipping of the throttle. I turned off the key and noticed it spiked to around 40ish PSI and shot back to 0 PSI right as it shutdown. Odd I thought so I fired it back up. This time I nailed it WOT in neutral and it went as high as 50 PSI. I put it in gear and gave it a WOT blast or two while holding the brakes and the needle moved up. The max it ever hit was 50 PSI.

On to the last port...

 

[MalcolmV8]

Hey here's something interesting. I was about to move the gauge off the EPC port when I decided to pull the baumann controller off the harness and re-fire up the engine. It idled with 90 PSI on the EPC. Highest reading I've seen by far. Not sure what this means but I though that was very interesting.

 

[Brian_B]

Thanks for the update. I'll be curious what you find as you progress.

ps. Thanks for demonstrating the importance of the pressure gauge as a diagnostic tool.

What are you trying to find out with the pressure guage is what I don't understand.

In an earlier post he saw metallic parts in a tiny amount of fluid. If he drops the pan, I am pretty sure it will confirm all our suspicions that it needs a rebuild.


Can you explain to someone who doesn't understand (me) the time and money spent after seeing the fluid he saw? (confused)

 

[Glacier991]

Ok for that trannie Line at idle 45-78 and EPC 5-15. Reverse Line 64-98 EPC 5-15; WOT Line 16- - 210 EPC 83-98.

Brian.... the odds clearly favor something wrong internally. I mean it DOEs need a rebuild.... we may extend the life briefly..... but more importantly... when we take readings like this, and then inspect the internals, it can teach us things about pressure and internal damage. Some pressure problems might arise without metal flakes, and in this case we may find out what parts are leaking pressure..... in the future that may be a valuable exercise to have gone through...if nothing else a lot more folks now know about the pressure taps on the 4R70W ! <g>

 

[MalcolmV8]

The third tap, direct line, shows 0 PSI in P-R-N and 40 PSI in OD-2-1 at idle.

OK with all those readings do you think there's any hope of replacing a solenoid or seal or something and getting anything back? I don't understand how this 11k tranny has died just from sitting around. Maybe it was broke before it even went to the junk yard?

Are there any good national chains that sell rebuilt 4r70w transmissions at a better price than Ford? My local Aamco wants $1300 to rebuilt this unit as a carry in (I remove from vehicle and drop off). Not sure if that includes a new TC or not.

Thanks
Malcolm

 

[Brian_B]

Hmmm....So you are really just teaching others how to run diagnostics with this. These pressure tests are for a transmission problem where the fluid is nice and clean and shows no wear?


I guess I am old fashioned (shade tree). You modern technical people confuse me.


I would bet that it sitting for 5 years is the major culprit and he finds all kinds of dried up shrunk seals and then burnt parts when he opens it.

 

[Glacier991]

Well to start, Phoneix Remanufactured Transmissions has a good rep. $1300 for a carry in? Reasonableness would depend on what they do, it it is a soft parts rebuild with new frictions only, that's HIGH (but then consider the source).

You should find something for under a grand delivered for this trannie I would think.

As for the 11K..... sounds doubtful to me... you nicely illustrated my point about junkyard trannies. Sad to say.

I only wish this wasn't your daily driver, would be fun to tear it down and document what you find. (and complete the circle on the pressure readings)

 

[Glacier991]

Pressure tests in a trannie are like taking your own blood pressure. It can tell you a lot. Hydraulic pressure is to an AT like your blood pressure is to you. ATF is trannie blood. The pump is the heart.

Using a trans pressure gauge is a lost art... most places prefer to just rebuild then.... and in fairness, in the majority of cases, what you find, if bad, means rebuild anyway so why bother? Well in some cases you might just find out it can be saved without a rebuild. But for Aamco and a lot of other shops, the $$$ is the rebuild.

Before I paid $1300 for an AAmco rebuild I'd look into buying something from Performance, or Phoenix. (Or time permitting, rebuild it myself). My 2 cents.

[Edit] forget Performance for a rebuilt 4R70W trannie... I thought they also carried 4R70W's in flavors like they do AOD's... not. I buy parts there so never looked as far as i should have, sorry for the bad info.

As for Phoenix, check this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/4R70...ewItemQQcategoryZ33727QQitemZ8003471452QQrdZ1

 

[Brian_B]

I see your point...up to a point.

If the fluid is trashed and there are metallic pieces in the pan, it needs serious work (rebuild time). If is some obscure problem and not junk in the pan, I see the pressures being helpful in diagnosing it, although I personally have not seen a problem like this yet. It could happen.

I didn't mean to mess up the pressure school. I was just really confused at to why. Sorry.

I totally agree with Glacier though. $1300 seems a little high. You would enjoy building it yourself. There is a lot of self satisfaction in doing so (time permitting). You swapped the engine and trans over to a ranger, thats much harder than a rebuild.

 

[MalcolmV8]

Well guys I got brave and figured what the heck I'll take it out for a drive. I told my wife on the way out "when I call you from my cell come pick me up LOL". So I head out with the laptop hooked up and watching the tranny fluid temp. Amazingly as if by some magic it did not slip while trying to pull off.

My plan was to wait for it to slip and then pull it down to 2 or 1 and see if it slips there too. I went around the block once, twice, and so on and it kept going. Wow I thought, this is cool. But it's not perfect. I can feel neutral slipping in third at times and definitely when it shifts to forth (9 out of 10 times). After doing about 10 to 15 miles I got brave and hit the interstate.

Wow scary stuff there. Cruising at about 65mph I started to press down on the gas. It felt like it shifted down a gear and on the laptop I saw it say the Converter Clutch had turned off. Pressed more on the gas and it felt like it shifted down another gear yet the laptop still said I was in 4th. Little more on the gas and it shifted to neutral and the engine was just free revving. I let off the gas and coasted and suddenly it felt like a bit of a hesitation (like a down shift) as it engaged a gear but it had not because if I touched the throttle it still revved in neutral. It then felt like a second downshift and now I was in gear again and as long as I was light on the peddle I could keep going.

I was able to duplicate that interstate pattern quite easily over and over.

In all I probably did about 20 miles and still no slipping on pull off. Well at least not to the point of where if feels like you're in neutral. It may be slipping more than it's supposed to and I just don't know? I'm not to familiar with this setup.

Oh well I guess this weekend I'll be pulling the tranny. Just sucks because squished into a Ranger it's a lot of work. In addition to the usual t-case, drive shafts, exhaust etc. I also have to pull the front suspension crossmember (bell housing is to big to fit through), pull the A/C - heater box, pull the upper intake assembly on the motor and related items, lift the entire motor and pull it forward to get to the bell housing bolts.

In the mean time I'll be searching for a better deal on either a re-man unit or getting mine rebuilt. Brian, I know rebuilding it would be very cool as I've rebuilt manuals before but time is an issue. This is my daily driver and the only vehicle I have for driving in the snow when winter rolls around.

So the saga goes on.
Thanks so much guys
Malcolm

 

[MalcolmV8]

I looked the Phoenix web site. At first it seemed really cheap $725 but as you dig deaper, for an Explorer 4r70w their web site says $825 and that's for a 95-97 unit. If you want the 98-01 it's another $350 which puts me at $1175. They charge $130 shipping each way (they require my existing unit as a core). So there's $1435. I'll call them tomorrow and see if they will work a deal otherwise back to local hunting. I'd prefer to skip shipping costs if possible.

Thanks

 

[exploded99]

PM pedstang - he sells a lot of parts from rolled x's on this site, and he is in Kansas, Dorothy (sorry, couldn't resist). You might get lucky and find a deal -

 

[MalcolmV8]

Thanks - I tried to PM pedstang and it says no such user?

 

[Brian_B]

Go to this thread and ask him:


http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141143&highlight=pedstang

Shipping again, but......

 

[IAmTodd]

I say take it and get it rebuilt. Get it beefed up a little and put a shift kit in it. That way its ready whenever you supercharge it

 

[MalcolmV8]

Brian, ped5stang is not to far from me. I could just go pick it up. Only problem is I risk been right back in the same situation I'm in now.

IamTodd, I know you're going to laugh but I'm new to automatics. What exactly does a shift kit do? I assume as the name implies it improves shifts? I think I'd be more interested in less slippage as you accelerate from a stop light rather than how it shifts to the next gear. But there again I haven't lived with an auto so I'm not speaking from much experience.

I think right now I'm more concerned with reliability. My experience so far makes me not want to do anything to the tranny that will shorten its life.

 

[MalcolmV8]

Update on my options:
Aamco = $1300 soft rebuild. If things are real bad inside they said they'll have to charge me an extra $379 for the converter instead of it been included in the price and if there are any hard parts broken that will be additional cost. It comes with a 6 month / 6k warrantee.

Ford = $1625 over the phone. Once they saw me in person it was $1450 as I'm a regular customer and they give me a break. That price included a new TC, 2 year / 24k warrantee.

Ped5stang = $500 for 36k 2000 unit with 90 day warrantee.

I picked Ped5stang and figured while I'm running on his I could rebuild my existing so if it does fail down the line I'll have another unit ready to go at hopefully a lot less cost. He's only about 40 minutes away from me so I went down this afternoon and picked it up. It's sitting in my garage waiting to go. I'm going to start pulling the old one tonight and hopefully be putting in the new one tomorrow night.

Malcolm

 

[Glacier991]

I couldn't be happier. Hopefully by the time you get ready to build the Rebuild Diary will be done and helpful for you. Let me know if you need to borrow tools too.

ps. before you buy parts for your rebuild talk to me, I can probably save ya a bundle. I'm getting savvy at this.

 

[Brian_B]

Good deal. Sounds like a great plan.

 

[exploded99]

Everything I ahve heard says stay away from Aamco if you can, so I think you made a good choice. You can buy three trannys from pedstang before you spend as much as the Ford tranny costs. 4r70w trannys are generally pretty bulletproof - go lots of miles.

Since you are new to automatics, I think it would be a good idea to put a new filter and fresh fluid in your new tranny. Drain your torque converter. Takes three gallons.