ohv rockers

[Carguy3J]

I don't know. Those holes look like they provide oil to the rocker shafts, and are also what allows oil to run down onto the springs. It might work to make them smaller, but I don't know if I would plug them.

Also, you're assuming that the oil passage inside the rocker extends to that area where you want to drill. You may need to cut up a few rockers, for cross sections, to find where the passages go to or not.

You could also try using dry film lubrication coatings instead, like I'm thinking about doing. :
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3282729#post3282729

 

[jd4242]

I don't know. Those holes look like they provide oil to the rocker shafts, and are also what allows oil to run down onto the springs. It might work to make them smaller, but I don't know if I would plug them.

Also, you're assuming that the oil passage inside the rocker extends to that area where you want to drill. You may need to cut up a few rockers, for cross sections, to find where the passages go to or not.

You could also try using dry film lubrication coatings instead, like I'm thinking about doing. :
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3282729#post3282729

They dont connect to a oil passage. They bleed off the oil thats between the rocker and shaft.the oil comes out the shaft some goes through a hole to the pushrod tip and some goes to oiling the rocker itself.

I dont think a coating would hold up under that force.also it the valve tip/ rocker tip that wears the most, not the pushrods.

 

[jd4242]

Here.once this happens then the pushrods start to wiggle and cause wear, but the tip where it touches the valve is where it starts.these are delta after VERY few miles..

 

[Carguy3J]

They dont connect to a oil passage. They bleed off the oil thats between the rocker and shaft.the oil comes out the shaft some goes through a hole to the pushrod tip and some goes to oiling the rocker itself.

I dont think a coating would hold up under that force.also it the valve tip/ rocker tip that wears the most, not the pushrods.

Those coatings are used throughout various racing formats, including NASCAR. They can be used on just about any friction surface, including bearings. If they hold up to the force on a main bearing, the valvetrain stuff shouldn't be a problem. That's what that stuff is made for.

You could coat the valve tip itself (and the stem as well), if you had the valves removed. Even just doing the rocker tip will still reduce friction/wear on the valve tip too.

 

[jd4242]

Those coatings are used throughout various racing formats, including NASCAR. They can be used on just about any friction surface, including bearings. If they hold up to the force on a main bearing, the valvetrain stuff shouldn't be a problem. That's what that stuff is made for.

You could coat the valve tip itself (and the stem as well), if you had the valves removed. Even just doing the rocker tip will still reduce friction/wear on the valve tip too.

Yea idk anything about coatings nor have looked into them.I would think the gains would be so minimum that it wouldnt be worth it.especially on a part that naturally last hundreds of thousands of miles and is easily replaceable.Im more interested in solving why it wears(lack of oil) ... .thats my opinion

 

[Carguy3J]

Yea idk anything about coatings nor have looked into them.I would think the gains would be so minimum that it wouldnt be worth it.especially on a part that naturally last hundreds of thousands of miles and is easily replaceable.Im more interested in solving why it wears(lack of oil) ... .thats my opinion

That's the point though. They DO reduce wear, because they substantially reduce friction. The dry film lubricant fills in the microscopic pores/pits in the surface of the metals, and makes them "smoother". Its kind of like a spray on super polishing. Depending on the formulae, they can even be used as a substitute for oil, in industrial applications where "wet" lubrication can't be used. Of course, there is also various thermal barrier coatings for combustion chambers and piston tops. If you're building high horsepower motors, you should look into the various coatings available.

Check out www.techlinecoatings.com.
If you google "performance engine coating", there is an article in Circle Track magazine, I think, that explains the value of performance coatings.

 

[jd4242]

That's the point though. They DO reduce wear, because they substantially reduce friction. The dry film lubricant fills in the microscopic pores/pits in the surface of the metals, and makes them "smoother". Its kind of like a spray on super polishing. Depending on the formulae, they can even be used as a substitute for oil, in industrial applications where "wet" lubrication can't be used. Of course, there is also various thermal barrier coatings for combustion chambers and piston tops. If you're building high horsepower motors, you should look into the various coatings available.

Check out www.techlinecoatings.com. If you google it, there is an article in Circle Track magazine, I think, that explains the value of performance coatings.

Ill have to look into it then because I definitely didnt know half that.just wondering cost to gain though.figure it would be easier and cheaper just to fix the oiling issue. I would understand in a HIGH hp motor but not for our application.

How do you feel about cyro treating parts?I looked into that before I decided to go forged

My pistons that im having made does have a coating on the skirt but believe the dish is going to be polished.

 

[QueenCitySleeper]

Good idea JD. I actually tried to mod the oil passages on my sealed power replacements and holy sh*t those things are hard. After ruining several bits and punches i managed to only scratch the surface on one.

 

[jd4242]

Good idea JD. I actually tried to mod the oil passages on my sealed power replacements and holy sh*t those things are hard. After ruining several bits and punches i managed to only scratch the surface on one.

Carguy brought up a very good point though. .oil probably oozes out that hole and runs down the rocker making it to the tip..I doubt it squirts out.the tolerance between the rocker and shaft is pretty great plus one side is open for pressure to leak out.. so probably bad idea he may be onto something with the coating, I just haven't looked into that part.I figure solve the issue and use caoting to fine adjust the friction. .

 

[Carguy3J]

Ill have to look into it then because I definitely didnt know half that.just wondering cost to gain though.figure it would be easier and cheaper just to fix the oiling issue. I would understand in a HIGH hp motor but not for our application.

How do you feel about cyro treating parts?I looked into that before I decided to go forged

My pistons that im having made does have a coating on the skirt but believe the dish is going to be polished.

The other way to look at it, is that we can use all the help we can get. A 10hp gain on 190hp motor is more meaningful then on a 650hp motor. Again, its also about durability. Reducing friction also reduces temperatures, which generally prolongs part life.

Also, oil is heavy. Just like you want a windage tray to keep oil off the spinning crank, its would be better to keep any excess oil off the valvetrain. If you can do it with a coating, instead of more oil, so much the better.

Your piston skirts most likely have a dry film lubricant coating similar to what I'm talking about using on the valvetrain. I would consider coating the dish ( and your combustiion chamber and valve faces) with a thermal barrier coating. This can be done on top of the polishing.

You need an airbrush for application, and an oven to cure the parts. (Typically 300deg for an hour). You can use a toaster oven for small parts. The DFL I'm looking at using for the valvetrain is about $38/oz. It goes on with a thickness in the thousandths of an inch, so it goes a long way.

 

[jd4242]

The other way to look at it, is that we can use all the help we can get. A 10hp gain on 190hp motor is more meaningful then on a 650hp motor. Again, its also about durability. Reducing friction also reduces temperatures, which generally prolongs part life.

Also, oil is heavy. Just like you want a windage tray to keep oil off the spinning crank, its would be better to keep any excess oil off the valvetrain. If you can do it with a coating, instead of more oil, so much the better.

Your piston skirts most likely have a dry film lubricant coating similar to what I'm talking about using on the valvetrain. I would consider coating the dish ( and your combustiion chamber and valve faces) with a thermal barrier coating. This can be done on top of the polishing.

You need an airbrush for application, and an oven to cure the parts. (Typically 300deg for an hour). You can use a toaster oven for small parts. The DFL I'm looking at using for the valvetrain is about $38/oz. It goes on with a thickness in the thousandths of an inch, so it goes a long way.

10hp would be like winning the lottery three times in a row...your lucky to gain 10 hp with a cam..ohv is 160 at the crank, like 130ish to the wheels. .lol(4x4 a4ld explorer)

But yes very interesting, I will be looking into it..ill have a talk with Manley again, they are building all my parts.

 

[Carguy3J]

Ok, couple of more questions/thoughts:

1.) Are those spacers steel or aluminum? It looks like they are "flared" on the ends. Is there a good reason why the OD isn't the same all the way across? Does the "middle" area need to be smaller to clear something? If not, why not just have some round bar stock, of the appropriate diameter, drilled out to slide over the shaft? Any thoughts on what the clearance should be, between the shaft and spacer ID?

2.) Going back to the oil hole matter, why do the middle two rockers look like they don't have those holes? Do those 2 middle rockers/pushrods tend to show more wear then the outer ones, with the holes?

3.)

....

Looking at this photo, the rockers seem to have little "balance" pads on the bottom. Is that what they actually are, or are they "left over" from the casting process?

It looks like 3 of the 4 shown have some varying degree of grinding done on them, and one appears untouched. Did you do this for some reason (clearance?) or did they come that way?

My reason for asking is that I had the idea to remove that pad, as well as smoothing/polishing the rest of the lumps/casting flash on the rockers. Similar to polishing connecting rods, this would remove "hot spots" and stress risers, deriving from sharp edges/protrusions. Also, and really possibly of greater value, it would reduce the weight of moving valve train parts. This in turn will allow the springs to better control valve motion, delay valve float a little, and possibly reduce wear and stress on springs and other parts, especially at higher rpm. People spend a LOT of money buying titanium locks and retainers, for this very reason. As long as the rockers aren't "balanced", a similar benefit can be achieved with a few hour and a Dremel. For that matter, you could make them balanced, even further improving valve "control".

Also, polishing the outer body will improve oil shedding, from a place it doesn't need to be ( on the outer surface of the rocker body). Oil being heavy, getting it off the rocker(s) will also further reduce the "effective" weight being slung around, that the springs have to control.

 

[jd4242]

They are aluminum. I dont know why they are flared at the ends, I think you could use same OD all the way across.I can mic out the ID Monday when Im at the shop.

All the rockers are the same as far as holes go.that picture is delta rockers, you can see where the grind the pad and drill out the cup.they put a new cup in it but drastically weakens the area around the cup.sealed power rockers are MUCH MUCH thicker there.

I believe they are balance pads on the bottom.I didnt touch them and who knows if delta messed with them also.I know my sealed power ones havent been touched and some of them appear to be different also tho.

I like the idea of cleaning them up and polishing them, but not certain I would remove that bottom pad without looking into it more.

 

[Carguy3J]

They are aluminum. I dont know why they are flared at the ends, I think you could use same OD all the way across.I can mic out the ID Monday when Im at the shop.

All the rockers are the same as far as holes go.that picture is delta rockers, you can see where the grind the pad and drill out the cup.they put a new cup in it but drastically weakens the area around the cup.sealed power rockers are MUCH MUCH thicker there.

I believe they are balance pads on the bottom.I didnt touch them and who knows if delta messed with them also.I know my sealed power ones havent been touched and some of them appear to be different also tho.

I like the idea of cleaning them up and polishing them, but not certain I would remove that bottom pad without looking into it more.

Interesting.... I wonder if calling Delta or Sealed Power would get any answers on the balance issue/question? If they are balanced, then ANY kind of grinding or polishing, including the clearancing you did, would throw that off.

As far as the spacers, would they need to be any particular alloy, or would just about any aluminum work? When you measure them, could you also get a precise length, for the end clearances too?

 

[jd4242]

Interesting.... I wonder if calling Delta or Sealed Power would get any answers on the balance issue/question? If they are balanced, then ANY kind of grinding or polishing, including the clearancing you did, would throw that off.

As far as the spacers, would they need to be any particular alloy, or would just about any aluminum work? When you measure them, could you also get a precise length, for the end clearances too?

Sure they could tell you if they do grind on them.I would take anything they tell you lightly. .I didnt do any clearancing on the rockers, I have touched them at all.

I wouldnt think so, I didnt make them tho.length is going to vary with the rockers you use.I had to trim mine to get them to fit.sealed power rockers are thicker.

 

[Carguy3J]

Sure they could tell you if they do grind on them.I would take anything they tell you lightly. .I didnt do any clearancing on the rockers, I have touched them at all.

I wouldnt think so, I didnt make them tho.length is going to vary with the rockers you use.I had to trim mine to get them to fit.sealed power rockers are thicker.

I thought you had said you had to clearance the underside, so they wouldn't hit the spring? Or was that on your old Delta rockers? Maybe that was someone else?

So, how roughly how much end play is there, between the rocker and the spacer, and/or the rocker and the "stands"? Obviously, too tight is bad. But, is too loose just as bad?

 

[jd4242]

I thought you had said you had to clearance the underside, so they wouldn't hit the spring? Or was that on your old Delta rockers? Maybe that was someone else?

So, how roughly how much end play is there, between the rocker and the spacer, and/or the rocker and the "stands"? Obviously, too tight is bad. But, is too loose just as bad?

Yea but thats not what I did.they were to close to the springs.I slightly tightened them down and took a long flat head screwdriver and tapped on the pedestals pushing them back slightly. It was on my delta ones but I push them back every time now, im sure the sealed power ones would slightly rub too if I dont push them back

Not much room.say maybe a 64th..I didnt really measure, put them in and obviously it was to tight so I cut a hair off at a time till they spun freely.you definitely dont wont them loose or the rocker tip wont be center on the valve tip.

 

[Carguy3J]

I just spoke to the tech line at Sealed Power. They say they do NOT balance the rockers, and that it would be ok to grind off the pad and/or polish the rocker body, as long as the oil holes are kept open.

They also said that it should be ok to bake them, for the dry film coating. They did say that leaving them in for a long time could possibly make them more brittle, but that the 1hr or so needed to cure the coating would be fine, as it takes much longer to heat the "inside" of the metal; as opposed to just the surface temp.

 

[jd4242]

I just spoke to the tech line at Sealed Power. They say they do NOT balance the rockers, and that it would be ok to grind off the pad and/or polish the rocker body, as long as the oil holes are kept open.

They also said that it should be ok to bake them, for the dry film coating. They did say that leaving them in for a long time could possibly make them more brittle, but that the 1hr or so needed to cure the coating would be fine, as it takes much longer to heat the "inside" of the metal; as opposed to just the surface temp.

What did they say the ""pad"" was?

 

[Carguy3J]

What did they say the ""pad"" was?

Nothing. They didn't say specifically, but it looks to me like its probably just where the hole is, in the casting mold, where they pour in the molten metal.

They were pretty adamant though, that they definitely aren't balanced, and they didn't see any reason why you would want to. The guy I talked to did seem to know what he was talking about. He did agree there might be some small benefit to balancing them, if the motor was going to turn 6-7,000rpm. Obviously that's way above what a stock (which is what those rockers meant for) 4.0L-OHV would ever see.

So, my plan is to smooth/polish the rockers, along with removing that pad. I MIGHT try to get them "static" balanced, by putting them on the shaft, and seeing if they "flop" one way or the other, or just stay centered. I probably won't put too much effort into it though.