Opinions on wheels, Cragar Soft 8 or AR172 Baja

[1997XLTRollover]

Just wanted to get some wheel opinions. I'm looking for a set for my 96 and I'm stuck between the Soft 8 and the American Racing AR172 Baja.

The AR's are quite a bit lighter at around 20 lbs vs the Soft 8 at 28. The Soft 8 however is a good 100-150 bucks cheaper per set. That being said it's made of steel and I was wondering if you guys think the Soft 8 is a stronger wheel than the AR172.

Things to consider are that my truck is 99% of the time a daily driver so MPG is important, but will the extra 8 lbs per wheel make that much difference in MPG? I know rotational weight is bad for everything but I'm just wondering what a difference it's really going to make. I do also plan on going off road a few times a year so that's something to consider too as minor as it may be.

Oh and one last question, I noticed the Soft 8 and maybe even the AR do not sit on the hub. They just center using the lugs. Is this a problem and will this cause too much stress on the lugs or a vibration because it's not centered on the hub?

 

[2TimingTom]

I guess my vote is for the AR172. They look a lot like my wheels (MB Wheels).

It seems like everyone has the Soft 8.

 

[1997XLTRollover]

I guess my vote is for the AR172. They look a lot like my wheels (MB Wheels).

It seems like everyone has the Soft 8.

I'm not so much talking about looks here as much as I'm talking function based on the points I have in my first post. I like both wheels equally really.

 

[Flash]

Lighter wheels allow your suspension to work much better.
They don't bounce up as high on compression and are more easily returned to the road on rebound with less oscillation.

Alloy wheels sink brake heat much better.

The wheel hub size should match the truck's hub, the lugs should not take the weight.

 

[2TimingTom]

The wheel hub size should match the truck's hub, the lugs should not take the weight.

If a wheel hub bore carried the load, you would have to press the wheel on. And an aluminum wheel pressed onto a steel hub- guess which wins after an impact in a certain durection..... The aluminum wheel bore wouldn't be round for long.

But as we all know, the wheel fits fairly loose on the hub. If you pay attention while tightening the lug nuts, you can see the wheel move slightly as each lug is tightened. And if you ever install a wheel that has the hub cap off, you can see an even gap all the way around it.

And ever notice the shape of those lug nuts? That taper helps to center the wheel around each lug nut. The wheel hub bore just needs to be bigger than the hub.

What holds the wheel on? It's the clamping force generated between the wheel and hub/brake rotor when the lug nuts are tightened. The lug studs are loaded purely in tension. If the lug nuts aren't tight, the lug studs could see shear/bending and could lead to them snapping.

 

[Flash]

Everything you said is true but the hub does take most of the weight.
That's why it has the boss in the middle.

It's not a snug fit like a lot of cars, my BMW and SAAB sometimes I have to hit the wheel off after I take the lug bolts off.

 

[2TimingTom]

if the hub were to take load it would also need to center the wheel. If it wasn't centered even the slightest amount, it would vibrate the car to pieces at highway speeds. You can't get an accurate centering job without pressing the 2 pieces together. And then again if the hub carried load you're faced with a steel hub transferring load into an aluminum wheel. Steel wins every time.

The reason you have to free your stuck wheels is because of dissimilar metal corrosion.

If you think the hub carries the load, take your acorn shaped lug nuts (even the BMW uses tapered lug bolts) and replace them with standard flat nuts. If the hub carries the load then nothing has really changed. Go for a drive. But take the acorn shaped lug nuts with you so you can safely drive back.

I've fitted many wheels with significantly larger hub bores without problems. A little extra care needs to be taken to evenly tighten the lug nuts down while the wheel is in the air to ensure that it gets fully centered around the hub.

I've also studied the mechanics behind this. And talked with suspension engineers at GM and Joe Gibbs Racing.

 

[1997XLTRollover]

Good info guys keep it coming!

 

[Flash]

The reason you have to free your stuck wheels is because of dissimilar metal corrosion.

No. There is antiseize there. Not that any car of mine would ever be that badly maintained.
BMW and SAAB are known to have hubcentric wheels as do many other cars.

As for a steel hub transferring load on to an aluminium wheel and steel winning, wtf?

Yes, BMWs and SAABs have tapered seat bolts.
If you try to fit 5x120 pcd wheels with too large a bore size to a BMW it will wobble, it's a known fact. That's why the make hubcentric rings.

 

[1997XLTRollover]

No. There is antiseize there. Not that any car of mine would ever be that badly maintained.
BMW and SAAB are known to have hubcentric wheels as do many other cars.

As for a steel hub transferring load on to an aluminium wheel and steel winning, wtf?

Yes, BMWs and SAABs have tapered seat bolts.
If you try to fit 5x120 pcd wheels with too large a bore size to a BMW it will wobble, it's a known fact. That's why the make hubcentric rings.

This is what I've always thought to be the case. But the Cragars don't have any way to have the hub fit to the wheel even with rings. Why would they make a wheel this way if it was necessary for them to sit on the hub?


I should clarify. This is actually a legit question. I'm not disagreeing at all. I'm just wondering what your thought would be as to why they would even manufacture a wheel this way. I can understand a larger hub and use of rings so it's a fairly universal wheel, but this wheel has a massive hole in the center of it. Also centering rings are made of plastic so I can't see them taking a load very well if the hub itself actually holds the weight of the vehicle. The way I see things is that the hub centers the wheel and the lugs hold it.

 

[Varsity]

I'm no wheel/rim expert, but I'll throw in my two cents and experience and maybe something for you to think about.

Are these going on stock sized tires or bigger ones like 33's? If its the latter, I think the MPG concern is kinda pointless. Your gearing and bigger tires are going to have a much bigger effect on mileage than whether or not you have steel or aluminum wheels, so in that sense, I'd say go with the cheaper Soft 8's. If this is a daily with stock sized or 31's, MPG concerns make a little more sense. You say this will 99% DD, so appearance and weight is a little more important. I wouldn't worry about strength differences if it's a DD. Yes, steel SHOULD be stronger overall, but sometimes people make it sound like aluminum rims have the strength of melted nacho cheese.

When I lifted my truck and went to put on 33's, my original plan was to run the Ford steelies with 33x12.50R15 tires. If i remember right, the rims i wanted were 15x6 and my stocks were 15x7 and there was debate whether or not either of those were a good idea to run on a DD. It was suggested to bump up to 15x8 or even 15x10 to run with the tire. I mention this because I ended up getting the cheapest steel rims I could find because I wasn't expecting or planning on buying new rims too. I ended up with the American Racing AR767 which is basically just a cheap steel rim. I know it's a different rim, but it's a basic steel rim like the Cragar and I haven't had any complaints. I don't necessarily like the style, but I like having a super cheap rim to swap out if I need to and not have to care if it gets scratched, rusty, etc.

Long story short, my opinion is to just get the cheap Cragars if there's that much of a price difference. They're super common, but people on this site run 'em and love 'em. Regardless of what anyone says, I highly highly doubt you would notice any difference in mileage between the two you mention, and I'll bet the strength difference is unnoticeable, unless you're slamming them doing rock crawling stuff. Sure, 8lbs is 8lbs, but unless you're watching you're mileage to the tenth, there's so much more that can get in your way. If my daily was just a daily and not going to see any off-road, I'd probably get a nicer polished aluminum rim for weight savings and appearance. However, the simplicity and strength of a common steel rim is pretty nice too. Plus they were considerably cheaper than anything else at the time. Your situation is pretty close to mine, DD most of the time, off-road whenever the chance presents itself. I have the cheapest steel rims I could find at the time and haven't regretted it. Ok, maybe not such a long story short...

 

[2TimingTom]

That's why the make hubcentric rings.

So because someone makes a product, there is a legit reason for it?

In my defense, I'll enter exhibit A:

Must work right? Someone makes it and sells it. It has to work. Has to be a need. I need one NOW. Take my money.

If you try to fit 5x120 pcd wheels with too large a bore size to a BMW it will wobble, it's a known fact.

German cars use lug bolts and have issues with wheels not being centered. This is true. Cars that use lug nuts don't seem to have this problem. Not exactly sure what the difference is, just an observation.

As for a steel hub transferring load on to an aluminium wheel and steel winning, wtf?

Perhaps you've noticed that steel is harder than aluminum. Perhaps not. The density of steel is roughly 3 times that of aluminum. If you were to press an aluminum wheel onto a steel flange and support ~1000 lbs solely through that connection and subject it to dynamic impacts that instantaneously transfers up to 50x the static load, the steel hub would deform the softer aluminum bore each time there is an impact. Over several thousand miles of rough roads, that soft aluminum hub bore would be all deformed and vibrations would be through the roof.

If you know anything about bolted joints, then you would know that if you are able to put something into a hole without tools- that is a loose fit. There are different classes of loose fits, but they are all still loose nonetheless. Just like a wheel held up flat against the brake rotor- I can hold it there by hand. Putting the lug nuts does not draw it in any farther. And since gravity is always pulling us down (although in Australia I've heard everything is upside down....), the wheel would rest on only the top side of the hub flange- because it's a loose fit remember. If you were to use the non-tapered lug nuts and use flat nuts, the wheel would be held in that position (or regular bolts instead of the weird german lug bolts) and that offset would show up as a vibration that would shake the car apart at highway speeds.

I ran wheels on my former track car that the previous owner machined out the hub bore so it would fit a variety of 4x100 lug pattern vehicles. You'd think at over 100 mph on the track and banging track curbs and pulling 1+ G in the corners and 1.5G braking (all data logged), that huge hub flange would have said "screw this- I'm out" and departed the vehicle shearing the lug studs with it. But it didn't. And the fact that the wheels on my Explorer have a larger hub bore than the flange on the 8.8 rear axle and larger than the even smaller hub flange on the Dana 30 front axle and they fit fine- no wobbles. And I have been known to drive my Explorer on the occasional dirt road.

So I say again, the hard steel hub flange does not carry any load through the soft aluminum wheel bore (or even softer plastic centering rings provided with some wheels), nor does the hub flange center the wheel. The clamping force generated between the wheel and hub by properly torqued lug nuts (that "friction" thing we were always told to ignore in college engineering classes) centers the wheel and carries the load. The wheel is centered because of the tapered feature of the lug nuts sitting down in the tapered seat in the wheel.

 

[1997XLTRollover]

I'm no wheel/rim expert, but I'll throw in my two cents and experience and maybe something for you to think about.

Are these going on stock sized tires or bigger ones like 33's? If its the latter, I think the MPG concern is kinda pointless. Your gearing and bigger tires are going to have a much bigger effect on mileage than whether or not you have steel or aluminum wheels, so in that sense, I'd say go with the cheaper Soft 8's. If this is a daily with stock sized or 31's, MPG concerns make a little more sense. You say this will 99% DD, so appearance and weight is a little more important. I wouldn't worry about strength differences if it's a DD. Yes, steel SHOULD be stronger overall, but sometimes people make it sound like aluminum rims have the strength of melted nacho cheese.

When I lifted my truck and went to put on 33's, my original plan was to run the Ford steelies with 33x12.50R15 tires. If i remember right, the rims i wanted were 15x6 and my stocks were 15x7 and there was debate whether or not either of those were a good idea to run on a DD. It was suggested to bump up to 15x8 or even 15x10 to run with the tire. I mention this because I ended up getting the cheapest steel rims I could find because I wasn't expecting or planning on buying new rims too. I ended up with the American Racing AR767 which is basically just a cheap steel rim. I know it's a different rim, but it's a basic steel rim like the Cragar and I haven't had any complaints. I don't necessarily like the style, but I like having a super cheap rim to swap out if I need to and not have to care if it gets scratched, rusty, etc.

Long story short, my opinion is to just get the cheap Cragars if there's that much of a price difference. They're super common, but people on this site run 'em and love 'em. Regardless of what anyone says, I highly highly doubt you would notice any difference in mileage between the two you mention, and I'll bet the strength difference is unnoticeable, unless you're slamming them doing rock crawling stuff. Sure, 8lbs is 8lbs, but unless you're watching you're mileage to the tenth, there's so much more that can get in your way. If my daily was just a daily and not going to see any off-road, I'd probably get a nicer polished aluminum rim for weight savings and appearance. However, the simplicity and strength of a common steel rim is pretty nice too. Plus they were considerably cheaper than anything else at the time. Your situation is pretty close to mine, DD most of the time, off-road whenever the chance presents itself. I have the cheapest steel rims I could find at the time and haven't regretted it. Ok, maybe not such a long story short...

^This just cracked me up lol. I needed that today so thanks for that.

Anyway my plan is to run 32x11.50's (probably 6 ply BFG AT's). Originally I was going to run a 31x10.50 but I feel like I would be happier with the 32's on my 96 after seeing my 99 on 35's lol.

So because someone makes a product, there is a legit reason for it?

In my defense, I'll enter exhibit A:

Must work right? Someone makes it and sells it. It has to work. Has to be a need. I need one NOW. Take my money.



German cars use lug bolts and have issues with wheels not being centered. This is true. Cars that use lug nuts don't seem to have this problem. Not exactly sure what the difference is, just an observation.



Perhaps you've noticed that steel is harder than aluminum. Perhaps not. The density of steel is roughly 3 times that of aluminum. If you were to press an aluminum wheel onto a steel flange and support ~1000 lbs solely through that connection and subject it to dynamic impacts that instantaneously transfers up to 50x the static load, the steel hub would deform the softer aluminum bore each time there is an impact. Over several thousand miles of rough roads, that soft aluminum hub bore would be all deformed and vibrations would be through the roof.

If you know anything about bolted joints, then you would know that if you are able to put something into a hole without tools- that is a loose fit. There are different classes of loose fits, but they are all still loose nonetheless. Just like a wheel held up flat against the brake rotor- I can hold it there by hand. Putting the lug nuts does not draw it in any farther. And since gravity is always pulling us down (although in Australia I've heard everything is upside down....), the wheel would rest on only the top side of the hub flange- because it's a loose fit remember. If you were to use the non-tapered lug nuts and use flat nuts, the wheel would be held in that position (or regular bolts instead of the weird german lug bolts) and that offset would show up as a vibration that would shake the car apart at highway speeds.

I ran wheels on my former track car that the previous owner machined out the hub bore so it would fit a variety of 4x100 lug pattern vehicles. You'd think at over 100 mph on the track and banging track curbs and pulling 1+ G in the corners and 1.5G braking (all data logged), that huge hub flange would have said "screw this- I'm out" and departed the vehicle shearing the lug studs with it. But it didn't. And the fact that the wheels on my Explorer have a larger hub bore than the flange on the 8.8 rear axle and larger than the even smaller hub flange on the Dana 30 front axle and they fit fine- no wobbles. And I have been known to drive my Explorer on the occasional dirt road.

So I say again, the hard steel hub flange does not carry any load through the soft aluminum wheel bore (or even softer plastic centering rings provided with some wheels), nor does the hub flange center the wheel. The clamping force generated between the wheel and hub by properly torqued lug nuts (that "friction" thing we were always told to ignore in college engineering classes) centers the wheel and carries the load. The wheel is centered because of the tapered feature of the lug nuts sitting down in the tapered seat in the wheel.

I think there may be a combination of things going on here. Some vehicles are hub centric while others are lug centric. The hub helps center the wheel while the lugs actually support it. Maybe this is the source of the argument.

So maybe the real question is are Explorers lug or hub centric. I'd guess lug based on the tapered lug nut, where as my F-150 has flat lugs and is probably hub centric but still may not actually support the load.

 

[Flash]

This is what I've always thought to be the case. But the Cragars don't have any way to have the hub fit to the wheel even with rings. Why would they make a wheel this way if it was necessary for them to sit on the hub?




I should clarify. This is actually a legit question. I'm not disagreeing at all. I'm just wondering what your thought would be as to why they would even manufacture a wheel this way. I can understand a larger hub and use of rings so it's a fairly universal wheel, but this wheel has a massive hole in the center of it. Also centering rings are made of plastic so I can't see them taking a load very well if the hub itself actually holds the weight of the vehicle. The way I see things is that the hub centers the wheel and the lugs hold it.

I really don't know.
There's a brand of wheel here, Sunraysia, that's very common in the aftermarket.
The centres are cut from a flat disc and the holes don't even have a tapered seat. You need a special nut with a short shank and they keep coming loose, I can't even see why they're legal - probably for off road use only, but people keep buying them.

Plastic centering rings do actually work.

Why does the Explorer hub have the centering boss on it/

 

[1997XLTRollover]

I really don't know.
There's a brand of wheel here, Sunraysia, that's very common in the aftermarket.
The centres are cut from a flat disc and the holes don't even have a tapered seat. You need a special nut with a short shank and they keep coming loose, I can't even see why they're legal - probably for off road use only, but people keep buying them.

Plastic centering rings do actually work.

Why does the Explorer hub have the centering boss on it/

They'll be legal until someone sues them.

 

[1997XLTRollover]

Here we go guys. I think this clears it up and it's in my opinion a reliable source.

http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=91

 

[2TimingTom]

Next time you've got your wheels off with their hub bores "machined to the exact diameter of the hub flange", hold it up flat against the hub. Now try sliding it radially within that hub bore. Feel that movement? It's not much, but any noticeable movement would result in massive vibrations.

And then there's those pesky tapered lug nuts with their matching tapered seats machined into the wheels. Car companies are all about shaving money. If they didn't need to machine that tapered seat into all those wheels, that would save a little time. Make enough wheels and that little bit of time adds up to a lot of time. And we've all heard time=money.

 

[2TimingTom]

I just remembered that when I bought a set of wheels from Tire Rack for my VUE (this was about 9 years ago). The wheels they sent had those plastic centering rings- for 3 of the 4 wheels. I emailed them back asking them if it was safe to use the wheel without the centering ring. I wish I still had the response but I was told that yes it was.

Damn I wish I still had that email.

 

[1997XLTRollover]

I just remembered that when I bought a set of wheels from Tire Rack for my VUE (this was about 9 years ago). The wheels they sent had those plastic centering rings- for 3 of the 4 wheels. I emailed them back asking them if it was safe to use the wheel without the centering ring. I wish I still had the response but I was told that yes it was.

Damn I wish I still had that email.

I think this is the case. The rings are only used for vehicles with a hub centric mounting of the wheels where as vehicles that are lug centric do not need them because the lugs center the wheel.

 

[Flash]

And then there's those pesky tapered lug nuts with their matching tapered seats machined into the wheels.

BMWs all all hubcentric and are very sensitive. You must have the right bore size or use hubcentric rings or you will get vibrations.

I used a generic wheel and it felt like it was going to come off.

All of the standard BMW wheels have those pesky tapered lugs and seats.
What do you say to that?