Pats

[jah81592]

I have a customer who has swapped an Explorer 5.0L into a Volvo. The problem is PATS. I have turned it off in the tune and we are still getting a no start condition. I know I have sent pats off tunes to customers who have swapped a 98 or newer processor into buggies, Jeeps and etc. My question is how much of the pats system did you transfer during the swap? If you have performed the is swap and are positive of what it would take to get it running please step in this thread. We have installed only the pats module and the computer but still have a P1260 code. Please don't recommend getting the pats system reprogrammed by Ford to get everything working because we are going to turn it off with the tune. It would be impossible for me to go through my tunes and verify swaps or not. It would be too much. So I am posting on here to have those who have performed it to give thier information.-j

 

[99SportX]

Interesting. I always thought that when PATS was turned off in a tune that no part of the system was needed. I look forward to hearing the result of this.

I want to swap a 5.0 into an old volvo 240 as well.

 

[vroomzoomboom]

did he get the collar from around the ignition as well? the PATS might see its not there and try to shut it down. i know the tune that i got from you (still havent had time to reprogram it for the updated trans one you sent) works fine, and i had asked for you to turn the PATS off. the theft light just flashes for a min or two after the truck is running and thats it.

 

[TestPoint]

I am the customer James is referring to. As he indicated my PCM appears to have not recognized his turn off of the PATS function but the issue has evolved. In all our fooling around the PCM has decided that someone is trying to steal the non existent truck and has immobilized itself. Now it has the original Ford program installed and it will not accept the upload of a tune from the SCT 3015 device.

I am getting a P1260 - 'Theft detected - Vehicle immobilized' from reading the codes.

I am getting an error code 1019 from the 3015 - 'Unlock ECM failed'.

 

[jah81592]

Jon brought up a good point and I had my head in the wrong place. He mentioned that the computer gives power to the pump. OK, Tom mentioned he isn't getting a ground to the pump. This should be grounded all the time and the pump should be powered in crank and run positions by the positive side of things which go through the relay. Tom mentioned the car would run if you squirt starter fluid into the inlet. Depending on application pats will kill injectors or ignition. I haven't ever seen pats kill a fuel pump. I assured Tom that i have turned off pats successfully but as of no I don't think he believes his project will be a success. As I get my head wrapped around this there is something that just isnt making any sense.

 

[jah81592]

did he get the collar from around the ignition as well? the PATS might see its not there and try to shut it down. i know the tune that i got from you (still havent had time to reprogram it for the updated trans one you sent) works fine, and i had asked for you to turn the PATS off. the theft light just flashes for a min or two after the truck is running and thats it.

This is exactly what i mentioned to Tom, I believe all the components have to be present and accounted for even though you will have pats off. I haven't ever seen it happen any other way.-j

Interesting. I always thought that when PATS was turned off in a tune that no part of the system was needed. I look forward to hearing the result of this.

I want to swap a 5.0 into an old volvo 240 as well.

It depends on which processor you use. I am positive on some of the 2/4v Mustangs you can transplant the computer only, turn pats off and rock out. But an SCT engineer explained to me that some are different requiring the pats components although pats will be turned off.

 

[jah81592]

After talking to Tom this morning i have to agree with him about the ground. There is a ground supplied to the relay and not the pump. I misunderstood him and was thinking that the ground he was explaining was being supplied to the pump. My apologies for the confusion.-j

 

[TestPoint]

I have spent an hour loading and unloading tunes onto the PCM after discovering that the PATS module that was added was the source of the P1260 'immobilized' code. I determined that the SCT 3015 will not up/down load with the PATS module in place. Probably because it is not synced to the PCM.

Something changed as I am now getting fuel pump relay operation. Other than tuner activity nothing has been done to affect that.

I am still not getting injector operation. B+ is on the injector red lead in RUN/START key position but I do not see any ground on the other lead. I have verified that all 5 pins expecting ground are, indeed, grounded at the C202 connector to the PCM.

Engine continues to start on starter fluid pointing right back to the injector operation.

 

[TestPoint]

99SportX

Restoring an old Volvo is a great experience!

Here is a head start:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=250257

I have 2 of them under restoration.

Here is the other:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=256460

 

[vroomzoomboom]

ok. really dumb qestion coming. when you got all your swap stuff, did you take it from a donor, or buy it as motor, harness, electronics, ect. if you pulled it from a donor, did it run before you pulled it? i am sure you and james have gone over it, i just wanted to ask so we know, that way we all may be able to help out a little better.

 

[99SportX]

Very cool Tom. Every once in a while I go onto the Turbo Bricks site to see if there are any cool projects going on, although I don't have an account. There don't seem to be many old Volvos for sale in my area but I see one driving every day it seems. I guess the people that own them love them and aren't selling.

 

[TestPoint]

Varoom

I found the engine/transmission, all the original bolt on things like starter, alternator, AC compressor, and the original PCM on a pallet in dry storage from a Explorer/Firestone rollover. Wiring harness was as installed by Ford. The yard's inventory listed it as having 11k miles. Appeared to be too good to be true and at a great price.

Unfortunately, I did not know how to spell PATS at the time.

 

[TestPoint]

99SportX

You have got to start out with a car that did not spend its life where the DOT puts lots of salt on the roads. They are still out there as verified by finding an '81 with 25,178 miles on it. Absolutely no rust other than some very minor surface rust (outside) on the paint.

 

[nonhog]

Following close as to how the PATS thing turns out. I'm doing almost an identical swap as Tom. I bought an extra pre PATS PCM. (just in case)
I'm way behind Tom. Here is a link.
http://brickspeed.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=1784

 

[2000StreetRod]

injector control

I have spent an hour loading and unloading tunes onto the PCM after discovering that the PATS module that was added was the source of the P1260 'immobilized' code. I determined that the SCT 3015 will not up/down load with the PATS module in place. Probably because it is not synced to the PCM.

Something changed as I am now getting fuel pump relay operation. Other than tuner activity nothing has been done to affect that.

I am still not getting injector operation. B+ is on the injector red lead in RUN/START key position but I do not see any ground on the other lead. I have verified that all 5 pins expecting ground are, indeed, grounded at the C202 connector to the PCM.

Engine continues to start on starter fluid pointing right back to the injector operation.

I can verify from personal experience that the 2000 PCM disables the fuel injectors when PATS criteria is not satisfied. B+ is provided to all injectors via the PCM power relay (red wire). Each injector is fired by the PCM pulling the other wire low.

The PATS module is normally connected to the PCM via the OBDII bus. Even if your custom tune turns off PATS there may be some required initial communication between the PATS module and the PCM. Make sure PATS pin 6 is connected to PCM pin 16 and PATS pin 5 is connected to PATS pin 15. Is power available to the PATS module? If not, it could be loading down the OBDII bus preventing your programmer from communicating with the PCM. PATS pin 15 should have battery voltage at all times and PATS pin 16 should have battery voltage in Start or Run.

 

[TestPoint]

2000StreetRod

Thanks for joining the discussion. You were a great help to me some time ago figuring out the wiring for this project.

I wired in the PATS module per the electrical schematic. Two grounds, perm B+, switched B+ and then the circuits 914 and 915, the data buss + and -. That's all there is to it. Since the data buss work with a code reader and loads and unloads a tune I make the assumption that those connections are good.

Connecting the PATS module prevents the SCT tuner and the PCM from communicating but I now have James' PATS disabled tune installed in the PCM. That required disconnecting the module. I think I have tried starting with the module in place but am really unsure of that. Will verify that shortly.

Symptom remains that the injectors are not getting a signal from the PCM. I would expect that to be a pulsed ground. No 'scope available but nothing shows up on a VOM.

Somehow, somewhere the issue with no ground to the fuel pump relay disappeared during the uploading/downloading of the tune/Ford strategy. Nothing physical happened to cause that.

Please keep throwing ideas at us.

 

[2000StreetRod]

crankshaft position sensor

. . . Symptom remains that the injectors are not getting a signal from the PCM. I would expect that to be a pulsed ground. No 'scope available but nothing shows up on a VOM. . .

Make sure that the crankshaft position (CKP) sensor is connected and wired correctly. The PCM may disable the fuel injectors if it does not read the crankshaft rotating via the CKP sensor.

. . . Connecting the PATS module prevents the SCT tuner and the PCM from communicating but I now have James' PATS disabled tune installed in the PCM. That required disconnecting the module. I think I have tried starting with the module in place but am really unsure of that. Will verify that shortly..

This seems suspicious. I'll try my programmer with a chipless ignition key to see what happens.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Dtc p1260

With a chipless ignition key my programmer is able to communicate with the PCM via the OBDII bus. I read the codes and it displayed

DTC P1260 Theft Detected - Engine Disabled

 

[TestPoint]

While you do not have a valid key the PATS module and the PCM have been synced. Mine has not. Don't know what that means in this conversation, just making an observation.

 

[TestPoint]

SCT has reviewed James' tune and confirms that PATS is turned off in software. James has been doing this too long to have it turn out any other way.

I have done connector to connector continuity test so many times I have little faith that I am going to find anything new. If you will check out this link you will see the detail that I have gone to in building the wiring harness.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=250604

I have all the Ford electrical drawings and an education and work experience in electronics so this is not some mysterious subject.

The electrical drawing for what I have done can be found here:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=250746

There is certainly the very valid possibility that this is a wiring error but it is beyond me to find it at the moment.

I appreciate everyone's efforts to help me solve this.