Phenolic vs Steel caliper pistons

[VORTMAX_99]

Am attempting to replace our 2003 4WD Sport disc brake pads. Some of
the aftermarket manufacturers make a distinction between phenolic
and steel piston calipers while some other manufacturers don't.

Looks like the basic brake design is a 667 pad. Anyone know how
to tell whether they're steel or phenolic without actually having to
remove the caliper ?

Tx

Geo.

 

[casdancan]

I was wondering the same thing...

 

[CDW6212R]

The phenolic piston will look thicker, a dull color more like tan. The steel pistons will be easily identified by scratching them, they will be shiny or typical steel gray. Remove the inner pad and check them out.

I thought that they all took the same pad though? I thought that there was only one Sport Trac or Sport pad. I have a spare pair of calipers from a Sport Trac, I like the 95-01 calipers better, the pad is a hair bigger. You can swap them, they bolt on just like the other calipers. The pads do have to match the calipers though.

Ford cheaps out sometimes and goes with the phenolic pistons. I had them in my old Crown Vic, and the old Explorer also I think. They work fine until the heat gets too high. Delivering mail made them begin to crumble from the pads inward. Keep an eye out for cracks in the phenolic pistons.

 

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

Given a choice, I'd go with the steel pistons.
The reason being that the steel piston and iron
caliper will expand and contract at nearly the
same rate when heated and cooled.

Not sure about phenolic and steel, but I suspect
the expansion rates would be different. I've had
a couple calipers to stick (on different vehicles),
and they had phenolic pistons. Of course this
proves nothing, just my experience........

 

[CDW6212R]

Oh yes, the old Explorers came with phenolic pistons. I had a caliper stick on my 91 as well, due to being undriven for three years. The heat of it sticking for the distance I drove it delivering mail destroyed the rubber seal and the piston was missing a lot of small chunks. Don't confuse that with the material though, calipers will stick often from corrosion after not being driven for long periods of time. My 93 Explorer did that also, but it was minor and close to home. In both cases I replaced both pairs of calipers with rebuilt calipers. They were a bargain back then, about $20 each.

 

[fixxxer]

For the 1st gen's, the rebuilt calipers are still about $20/ea with phenolic pistons, and about $25/ea with the steel as of about 2 years ago from AdvanceAuto when I replaced mine. Not sure if they've gone up or not but I'm sure the newer one's with dual pistons will be more than the older style with a single piston.

 

[CDW6212R]

yes, rebuilt calipers are a very good deal really. Unless a vehicle is seeing severe duty use of the brakes, any piston will do. Avoid the phenolic if you will tow, or really stress the brakes a lot. My delivering mail finds all brake deficiencies, I can kill brakes fast if I want to. That's why I buy the best brake parts, and I found the motivation to build some custom brakes for my fun truck.

 

[VORTMAX_99]

Thanks for the replies guys. They appear to be the phenolic pistons
and it seems that you can use the same pad number either way.
Plan on order the bendix mkd 667 pads as I used the bendix pads
up front last year.

Thanks again for the replies.

George

 

[plance1]

I went to buy brakes for my 02 sport track and this question came up on phenolic vs. steel. So I did a search and found this post.

I would like to buy my components prior to taking the truck to the shop. If I read the last post correctly, Vortmax says "you can use the same pad number either way". Not sure what this means, does this mean when given the option of of phenolic or steel, I don't have to know what I have now, I can just choose one or the other and not worry about it? Thanks in advance.

 

[CDW6212R]

Well ouch, I thought that the pads would be the same. Ford should not change parts during model years, parts sources don't do well with that.



I have a pair of those from my conversion to the bigger rotors. I decided that I liked my old 99 calipers better with the steel pistons, and the 95-01 pads are a slight bit larger.

 

[VORTMAX_99]

Just saw this post resurface...and I'll let you know what I went through
replacing the rear brakes on our 03 Sport (2 door...not a Sport trac).

It appears that there's a lot of confusion...especially in the aftermarket
about what brakes actually are used. I emailed bendix to let them
know that their 667 pads did not fit our application. (we're original
owners and this was first set of rear brakes). At least on the Sport
model it seems there was a mid model year change that doesn't show
up in the aftermarket catalogs.

There are 2 different types of pad/caliper combinations. One is the
larger steel piston calipers which have an inboard pad with a larger
"claw" (the piece that inserts into the center of the piston) and the
other is the smaller phenolic piston which has a smaller "claw" on
the inboard pad that goes into the center of the piston. The 667 pad
has the larger claw and would not work with the smaller phenolic
piston that I had on our application. Went to NAPA and even they
couldn't come up with the right application. Ended up going to ford
and getting the motorcraft br1400 pads and at least they had the
small claw on the inboard pad that I needed.

To complicate matters even further...the calipers weren't realeasing
completely...resulting in a hot brake. I ended up going through the
same hassle trying to get rebuilt calipers. Finally ended up taking the
calipers to NAPA and had them match them up.

Bottom line is when you go to do this...don't rely on the parts listing
in the applications catalogs. Your best bet is to take the old parts
with you and visually match them up. At least it will keep you from
having to make quite a few trips to the parts palaces.

As far as the steel vs phenolic...you can also just scratch the piston with
a pocket knife or awl and you ll be able to tell which it is. Also can use
a magnet I suppose.

Good luck with your brake job and hope it doesn't take you as long
as it took me.

George

 

[plance1]

hey thanks, Im going to print this out and take it to my mechanic. I don't know what the deal is with ford brakes, when I went to replace the brakes on my 2000 SVT, I had a similiar hassle, it seems that my svt did not come with the upgraded svt brakes but instead had regular contour brakes and everytime I ordered parts there was mass confusion and nothing fit right.

 

[matt98sport]

I know this is an old post, but 667A is what you need. The hole in the phenolic piston is considerably smaller than that of the 667, and the fork on the inner pad wont fit
I've upgraded to the phenolic sport trac calipers. The joys of working the counter at a fully stocked parts store... I get to experiment with "upgrades" when its not busy... I still hate my thankless job tho

And I dont know why anyone would say phenolic pistons are troublesome.. Maybe back in the 70's when they were introduced, but todays rubber seals fluids and phenolic compositions are greatly improved over their steel and "historic" phenolic variants. I haven't had a single problem with them on my 98 sport, and my pistons still look like new after several years.. not to mention if i recall, ford recalled E350's and installed phenolic pistons because brake fluid was boiling with aluminum pistons causing loss of braking power...

Anyway just my very very late $0.02

 

[yragsapo]

I know this is an old post, but 667A is what you need. The hole in the phenolic piston is considerably smaller than that of the 667, and the fork on the inner pad wont fit
I've upgraded to the phenolic sport trac calipers. The joys of working the counter at a fully stocked parts store... I get to experiment with "upgrades" when its not busy... I still hate my thankless job tho

And I dont know why anyone would say phenolic pistons are troublesome.. Maybe back in the 70's when they were introduced, but todays rubber seals fluids and phenolic compositions are greatly improved over their steel and "historic" phenolic variants. I haven't had a single problem with them on my 98 sport, and my pistons still look like new after several years.. not to mention if i recall, ford recalled E350's and installed phenolic pistons because brake fluid was boiling with aluminum pistons causing loss of braking power...

Anyway just my very very late $0.02

Never too late. Phenolic vs. Steel piston will always be something people are interested in looking into as long a auto parts stores give both as an option.

 

[cra2]

Yep, still an issue.
I just experienced it and checked out this thread.
I didn't know which I had (phen or steel) so I gambled and hoped the parts store would.
They didn't even ask and just handed me the steel so I took it home and took off the wheel to find out I had the smaller phenolic pistons. Great.
So I went back to the store and they tried looking through their system and couldn't find any such beast.
Went to, and called, several other stores in the area.
Noone had the rear pads for the 2003 explorer sport with phenolic pistons.
Great.
Finally found them (not ceramic, just OEM) at the Ford dealership across town.
$65.

My front pads, ceramic, I got from the autozone a mile from my house.
$35.

sigh....

 

[yragsapo]

I feel your pain cra2. I recently had to replace the valve covers on my 1994 Explorer Sport and the only one who had them is Ford. Fortunately, I was able to order them through Jim Vreeland Ford, so they cost $125 shipped for the pair, rather than $170 like my local Ford dealer wanted to charge. Here is Vreeland's site: http://www.jimvreelandfordparts.com/oem-ford-parts.html. I wonder if your parts would have been cheaper through that site.

 

[Aldizzle13]

2003 ford explorer sport trac

Yep, still an issue.
I just experienced it and checked out this thread.
I didn't know which I had (phen or steel) so I gambled and hoped the parts store would.
They didn't even ask and just handed me the steel so I took it home and took off the wheel to find out I had the smaller phenolic pistons. Great.
So I went back to the store and they tried looking through their system and couldn't find any such beast.
Went to, and called, several other stores in the area.
Noone had the rear pads for the 2003 explorer sport with phenolic pistons.
Great.
Finally found them (not ceramic, just OEM) at the Ford dealership across town.
$65.

My front pads, ceramic, I got from the autozone a mile from my house.
$35.

sigh....

man i hope this doesnt happen to me because im goin to change my rear brake pads this weekend...

 

[billmichael]

Given a choice, I'd go with the steel pistons.
The reason being that the steel piston and iron
caliper will expand and contract at nearly the
same rate when heated and cooled.

Not sure about phenolic and steel, but I suspect
the expansion rates would be different. I've had
a couple calipers to stick (on different vehicles),
and they had phenolic pistons. Of course this
proves nothing, just my experience........

I can tell you from first-hand experience that the phenolic pistons are cheap POS that should NEVER have made it off the assembly line. They cost me hundreds of dollars in parts and labor before figuring out what was causing the brakes to overheat and nearly catch on fire. D.U...!!! D.U...!!! D.U...!!! FORD...!!! This will now be the third set of calipers on this truck and this time they WILL BE STEEL. All I can think of is some AO penny-pinching, bean-counting, chicken plucker saved a nickel for FORD and caused me to spend big dollars in time, frustration and cold hard cash. WTH, FORD...??? Quality is "Job 1" my big donkey.

 

[billmichael]

You have no idea how disgusted I am with FORD. They no longer make a mid-sized truck for those of us that live in the real world and not some fantasy world where we use our F250's to haul abandoned houses down main street like they do all the time in the television commercials. I cannot say the words I really want to use because this is a family web-site but anyone who has had to deal with problems like this can feel my pain.

 

[CDW6212R]

I can tell you from first-hand experience that the phenolic pistons are cheap POS that should NEVER have made it off the assembly line. They cost me hundreds of dollars in parts and labor before figuring out what was causing the brakes to overheat and nearly catch on fire. D.U...!!! D.U...!!! D.U...!!! FORD...!!! This will now be the third set of calipers on this truck and this time they WILL BE STEEL. All I can think of is some AO penny-pinching, bean-counting, chicken plucker saved a nickel for FORD and caused me to spend big dollars in time, frustration and cold hard cash. WTH, FORD...??? Quality is "Job 1" my big donkey.

Hi Bill, sorry to hear that the phenolic pistons have been a problem for some. I learned of them in about 1994 with my first mail vehicle. Under sever usage, the phenolic pistons will disintegrate eventually. Mine had cracks in them that I finally noticed doing the brakes for probably the 6-8th time. After that I have avoided calipers without steel pistons, I'm hard on brakes.

BTW, is that truck the Sport Trac? If so, if it's the first generation(same front suspension as the 95-01 2nd gen Explorer), you can swap the front calipers for the 95-01's, which I believe all had steel pistons. The brake hoses are the same, you just have to use the matching brake pads(95-01's). I put those bigger rotors on my 99, I was the first in 2005, and I didn't like the Sport Trac caliper any better, so I kept my old calipers and pads. I have those spare calipers someplace.