Starter issues

[russ hill]

Hi guys,
This a 94 Explorer V6-Auto. It belongs to a friend of my Wife I seem to need to resurrect it about every 12 months...
The starter turns very slowly, now it has completely stopped. Some of the parts that have been thrown at it....

By her Brother..
Starter relay
Starter

Then it came to me,
I replaced the positive battery cable and it worked great for a while.
Then it began to get hard to start again....
I replaced the battery and alternator (the Alt was working OK but the bearings were shot and I couldn't stand it)
No help, it still turned very slowly, then just stopped...

I searched the forum... My next question is..
Does the starter need to be grounded? I see some talk about it and I see that one of the bolts looks like it could hold a ground strap...

Thanks

 

[Anime]

Just because parts have been replaced doesn't mean they work or everything else is on there correctly.

If it cranks slow or won't crank, usually it's the battery. If it's not the battery, it can be the starter solenoid. There are TWO starter solenoids, one on the passenger side fender near the battery, the other is on the starter. You might also check the battery ground cable, if it's full of corrosion or the connection at the frame and engine block might be rusted or gunked up.

The starter is already grounded via it's physical connection to the engine block. The stud is there for the positive battery cable retainer, not a ground cable. If the starter isn't cutting it, it might just be a cheap junk one.

 

[russ hill]

Just because parts have been replaced doesn't mean they work or everything else is on there correctly.

If it cranks slow or won't crank, usually it's the battery. If it's not the battery, it can be the starter solenoid. There are TWO starter solenoids, one on the passenger side fender near the battery, the other is on the starter. You might also check the battery ground cable, if it's full of corrosion or the connection at the frame and engine block might be rusted or gunked up.

The starter is already grounded via it's physical connection to the engine block. The stud is there for the positive battery cable retainer, not a ground cable. If the starter isn't cutting it, it might just be a cheap junk one.

Thanks Anime, Agreed on all points, The fender solenoid (I called it a relay) is new, I had the battery tested at the parts store and they said it was fine.... but I didn't get a warm fuzzy from the guys doing the testing. I was planning on pulling the starter and having it tested too. The ground cable could be shot.. the positive cable was

 

[Anime]

Use a multimeter and check the battery voltage, if it's under 12 volts it'll have trouble cranking. Generally you want 12.4-12.6 volts or so for a good battery.

Like I said, new means nothing. Is it a Motorcraft relay? Some cheap relays are known to have issues. They might cost a lot at the store, but some of those brands are just super cheap China-made parts that don't even cost a dollar in materials. Cheap parts can lead to these kinds of situations where there's no obvious cause since the thinking is the new parts can't be the problem, must be something else. If you use quality parts and/or just know the parts test good or are at least working.

Pretty easy though, either the battery or something between the battery and the starter if the problem is slow/no start.

 

[russ hill]

Right, Either the starter takes too much juice to turn, or there isn't enough juice to turn it.

I jumped the fender solenoid and the starter solenoid clicked but the starter didn't turn.

The battery shows 12+ volts.

I'm going to pull the starter and get it tested.... I have no Idea where it was purchased and I have seen plenty of bad parts right out of the box.

 

[awood]

Right, Either the starter takes too much juice to turn, or there isn't enough juice to turn it.

Another issue could be high resistance in cables or connections. The negative cable runs to the engine block, but there is also a tab along the way that ties the cable to the top of the frame. It can be hard to see. But I would suspect the battery first. Try a voltage check on the battery during cranking to see what it drops down to. You can prevent it from starting and allow for a longer crank time (to better see your volt meter reading) by unplugging the DIS or pulling the fuel pump relay, or by other methods.

If the battery drops below 11 or 12V replace it.

 

[russ hill]

Should have just trusted my first instincts...... just a bad starter

 

[russ hill]

Should have just trusted my first instincts...... just a bad starter

Well, That didn't last long.......
The starter worked perfect for a few days the stopped working for her yesterday....
I checked it out, it spins free but isn't engaging the flywheel. I pulled it and checked the wiring. No problem there, getting 12 volts everywhere I should. I had it bench tested and it tested good. I even replaced the fender solenoid just for insurance, no improvement.

I gerry rigged it and fired it up to test it myself. The gear comes forward and spins... but as I watched it, it slowly slid back. That doesn't seem right to me I think it should stay hard forward and positively engage when cranked?

I'm thinking of calling BS on the starter test and just go back and get another starter out of them, I'm thinking this one is a junk rebuild



Russ

 

[russ hill]

Got another starter on warranty... fired right up... I guess "Lifetime Warranty" means "Spend the rest of your life bring it back"

 

[MadMex]

Help!!! Starter went bad 4 days ago, so I replaced it with a working one from a recycled parts yard. Yesterday I cleaned the connections on the fender relay, and on the battery and then I installed the starter. Turned the key and it fired right up. Drove all over town last night and today with no issues. Went to the store this afternoon, got back into my Ex and no start. Popped the hood and I found that the smaller gauge wire that runs with the positive cable to the relay and to the starter was fried to a crisp through all the sheathing. Tryed another attempt to start my truck and the wire started to smoke. WTH happened? Please help, i'm Desparate. Thanks in advance,

 

[awood]

Not sure but I think that's a 12 or 14 gauge wire, and it would take a lot of current to fry a wire like that.

I'm guessing that the burnt wire and battery cable are shorted together, likely the wire terminal at the starter solenoid.

But just a guess.

 

[MadMex]

Thanks for the reply. The only change I made was to get rid of the female connector on the burned wire and install a 3/8" round connector as the recycled starter had a post for the connection not a male pin like the the one I removed. Finally, if it is a short, would it have taken that long to fry and cause another no start?

 

[awood]

It could have, since there is power there for only a couple of seconds during cranking.

Just for background information...I just changed my starter last week (in the parking lot of our high school!!). The parts guy said the original connector had lots of problems, so they switched connector types. A new starter has a short pig-tail wire already attached, and you just cut the old connector off the wire (like you did) and crimp it on the pig-tail.

It sounds like you didn't have that pig-tail wire, so you used a 3/8 ring terminal?? If so, make sure that the terminal isn't touching the lower large solenoid lug or the very short cable-like wire going from the solenoid down into the starter body. There are 3 connections total on the starter - two for the large cable and your burnt wire, plus the lower lug on the solenoid that should remain untouched. When juice comes down the large cable from the battery, it should go into the large upper lug on the solenoid. When voltage comes down the smaller wire (your burnt wire) to the solenoid, it will connect the upper lug with the lower lug (on the solenoid) then that very short cable goes from the lower lug down into the starter body. (only about an inch of that is visible on the starter). All three connectors are very close, and I'm thinking you are touching together on something down there.

I hope that makes sense...

 

[MadMex]

It does. Ran a new cable from the battery to the starter today...a nightmare for me. Picking up the new starter on Monday. I did have to crimp on a new "O" ring connector as you stated. There are three posts on the business end of the starter. One, a larger post, that I assume is for the 4 gauge battery wire, a second, which has a braided copper wire soldered to the post, and a third, smaller post, which I attached the smaller 14 gauge wire with the new round terminal. I tried to see where I might have shorted but was unsuccessful. When I put on the new starter Monday, I plan to add some shrink tubing on the connector. What do you think?

 

[awood]

Should work. If you're confident there was no short down at the starter, I suppose another possibility could be a shorted wire to the frame or engine block.

I changed the cable from the battery to the starter like you did (on my old 92). Yes it was a pain...
The reason I had to change it was the insulation was worn through and was shorting on the frame. It was interesting when the engine was cranked, it wouldn't stop cranking even when the key was returned to "off". Anyway...the point is that the smaller wire could be shorted in the same way since the cable and the smaller wire run together down to the starter.

Good luck.

 

[MadMex]

Its a done deal! The Ex is up and running. Unable to find a pos. cable without ordering. I picked one up at a local pick and pull, and was able to rebuild it. Since the cable burned to a crisp on Thursday, I had to replace the starter and my relay, both new this time...no junk yard pieces! Yesterday I pulled all the defective parts and did the replacements. Turned the key and it fire right up. Drove my rig all day with no issues. I did keep a close eye on my cable though to make sure it was not getting hot. All fine! After thinking about my issues, I have concluded that my starter shorted out at the crimp I installed. The new starter had a pigtail with shrink tubing, so the only connection I had to make was on the 12 ga wire coming off the cable to the starter. I shrunk the tube and wrapped it in tape for added protection. I appreciate all the great advise. Thanks!

 

[awood]