Tell me the best way to fix my problem. Money is of no concern. (Electrical Issues)

[Blacksheep Josh]

Please read the posts. My amps and subs that I have are posted twice now..

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

I am running 2500w rms off kicker zx2500.1 and my voltage never once goes into 12's. I got stinger volt meter in my explorer. I float at lower 14, high 13s at 45/50 volume. at full tilt my electrical stays at 13.3 to 13.5 depending which song it is you know.

'

And you have zero headlight dim? Can you list everything you have? Like Alternator, Batteries, Caps?

The alternator MAKES the power. The battery STORES the power. A capacitor, stores a smaller amount of power than the battery, but releases that power MUCH faster than the battery. When your headlights blink, it's because the stereo has called for more power than the alt can deliver, and the system is falling back on the battery. The Cap is like a shock absorber. Just be sure that you get 1 farad of capacitance per 1000 watts of amp power. Also, do NOT get the batt caps, or larger 25-100 farad carbon caps. Your BEST bet is to get single 1 farad electrolytic caps, and bridge them together. They have lower internal resistace. If their internal resistance is not lower than your battery, you gain nothing. But, the nice thing is that when you run caps in parallel, their internal resistance goes down.

Can you explain more about how I would "bridge" or "run them in parallel"?

I've read a lot on caps but I'm still not wrapping my head around them. I understand they provide the amp with quicker/bigger bursts of power when the amp hits, but the caps still have to recharge themselves from somewhere. So do the caps ONLY provide power when the demand is high enough?? Like for spikes? Is that how they work? I've never given serious thought to them as I've read conflicting reports about them.

So as I look forward, is my best option to use a highout alternator, an upgraded engine battery and caps mounted close to the amps? forget about extra batteries all together?

 

[jrowe6]

you have to remember that unless your stereo is way overtaxing your charging system most of the time you are not using 100% of the alts power. when a hard beat hits and your lights dim that means the current demand far exceeded the alts capacity, but only for a brief moments. a capacitor has a better chance of fixing that than an extra battery. the main purpose of the cap is to make the load on the alt more consistent. that huge spike when the bass hits and your lights dim is very hard on the alt. adding a cap to avoid that situation is kinda like preventative maintenance. yea you get some extra performance out of your stereo, but mostly youre just saving your alt.

yes the alt does have to charge the cap, just like a battery, but it does not have to charge it for a very long time because it does not hold a huge amount of power. and, its only charging during periods where there is a surplus of power.

lets say you have the stock alt, 130 amps. your stereo is cranked to the max and including the electric stuff on the truck you are using up 110amps minimum. during a hard bass note your demand from the amp just up an extra 30 amps and your up to 140amp current demand, the alt cant do it. a bettery cannot discharge hard enough and fast enough to cover for the alt so the voltage drops throughout the system. a capacitor would discharge the instant that situation happened and it would then recharge after that bass note is over and you are back down to a 110 amp demand. at that point you have 20 amps to recharge the cap with.

with the cap lets say your average current demand is 125amps, almost 100% of the alts capacity, but because you have the cap your maximum current demand during the deepest hardest bass notes is 127amps. yea you are really taxing the alt, but the demand is very consistent and never exceeds its peak capability and your voltage never drops. this is a better situation than having your spikes exceed the alts capability.

with the H.O. alt most likely you wont need the cap, it wouldnt hurt, but with 260amps to work with i doubt you will have any problems. test it out first after doing the big 3, getting a good battery under the hood, and after replacing the alt. if you are still having some head light dimming and you want to try to fix it then go ahead and buy a cap. you will want 4-5 farads worth in total.

as for wiring the caps in parallel. parallel means positive to positive and negative to negative. just like with speakers. you do not need to do 1 cap per amp. you want to run your main power wire into the first cap, then out from that cap across to the second, then out from the second into your distribution block. each cap will also have a ground wire, these can be grounded together with a common grounding location, or seperate with two different spots, just be sure they have a good easy flowing ground. there are videos on youtube that explain how to wire it up, search around tho, some of those vids are crap and some are very good. just watch a few of them and you should get the jist of things.

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

Sweet... I'll probably take a look online and see if I can find a few caps. Are there any brands I should absolutely stay away from? Or is it all right to go with the cheap brands?

 

[JarvisB]

'

And you have zero headlight dim? Can you list everything you have? Like Alternator, Batteries, Caps?

I had Optima Yellowtop under the hood for a while before it crapped out on me. Right now I am running stock battery and still float at high 13s volts.

So basically I am running stock battery, 250A alty, and big 3. 2500 watts rms.

no dimming at all. 13.5 to 14 volts when playing.

Even better when I had YT under the hood- stays at around 14.5.. I am going to buy another YT and maybe a smaller battery in the back down the road just to be safe.

 

[JarvisB]

Dude just buy a smaller battery rather than a capacitor IMO.

Buy one of the smaller Kinetik batteries, should do you good (that is what I want to add to my system later down the road)

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

I feel that suggestions so far have yielded these two options:

1. Big 3, High Output Alternator, 1/0 Gauge Wiring, Car Audio Battery in rear.
2. Big 3, High Output Alternator, 1/0 Gauge Wiring, Capacitors wired in parallel in rear.

 

[jrowe6]

there are alot of varying opinions on batteries and caps when it comes to car audio. you will never get a unanimous opinion on which is better.

as for buying cheap stuff, you get what you pay for. whatever you plan to buy try to find some reviews on it to see what people think about it.

one of these would be plenty:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_120PP1...acitors-5-farad.html?tp=739&tab=detailed_info

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

I found a deal online, so hopefully soon I'll be getting two 1.2 farad caps. While it's not 5 farad like you post it gives me a starting point.

 

[jrowe6]

how much are they?

 

[HCCA 250]

Dude just buy a smaller battery rather than a capacitor IMO.

Buy one of the smaller Kinetik batteries, should do you good (that is what I want to add to my system later down the road)

Jarvis, I don't think you read Jrowe's post. At the risk of belaboring the point, I'm going to try for a little more info on the caps.

The alt charges at 14.4-14.7 Volts...at least mine does. The battery has a float charge of around 12.75. That is, with the engine off, and no load. That difference in input voltage shows MY amps, at load to drop in output, from 1100 W to 900W. That is JUST going from 14.4V to 12.6Volts! The capacitor "floats" at the same votage as the alt. Yep that's 14.4-14.7 Volts. The battery WILL NOT ever be at that voltage potential. That means...if you use an extra battery, you are STILL going to be at 12.6-12.8 Volts, once you exceed the alts max output. AND, if you drop from 14.4, to 12.6 volts when you exceed the alts output, you will drop to 12.6V with one battery, or two, or three, or four, or five, or six batteries. You will STILL be at 12.6V when you exceed the alts max output. BUT, the CAP will be at the SAME potential as the Aternator's output. Now, since caps are small, compared to a battery, they do not store as much energy potential. But, they can store enough energy to "bridge the gap" as it were. And, since the caps are not the size of a battery, they recharge, almost as quickly as they discharge. One Farad is enough for a system with less then 1000W total power. But you can run many 1 farad caps in parallel to get enough capacitance to keep the system's energy potential at 14.4 Volts. I mentioned 1 Farad caps, rather than some of the other 10F or 50F caps, because the larger caps are carbon caps...not electrolytic. The 1 farad caps should all be electrolytic. The point being, the electrolytic caps have a lower internal resistance. The carbon caps have almost the same internal resistance as the battery! Not a lot of help, there. As many have also suggested "The Big 3", can you guess why? Yup, lowering the resistance in the power delivery system(at least, that's the main reason). So, lower internal resistance in a cap would also be a good thing, for the same reason.

Now, one caveat. If, you get carried away with capacitance, you start to reach a point of the cost/benefit wall. You can NEVER have too much capacitance, BUT if you spend more than $1000 you could have added a second alt, and a battery. (Second alts need their own battery.)

Now, some guys have argued that a cap does nothing. Well, if you run the system from the battery alone, sure. You're not having a problem with the drop in current from the alt's operating voltage, to the battery's float voltage, on heavy bass notes. And, if your system doesn't even come close to taxing the alt, again, correct. But....for the majority of guys that only have one alt, and 2000-3000+ Watts, you could get close to the alts max operating output. And, when you have blinking headlights, only at or near full volume, you probably need a cap.

Blacksheep Josh, the caps run in parallel are NOT "bridged". They are simply wired in parallel. Jrowe6 explained this, I know. I just wanted to clarify that parallel is not the same as bridging.

 

[BrianDye]

Now, some guys have argued that a cap does nothing. Well, if you run the system from the battery alone, sure. You're not having a problem with the drop in current from the alt's operating voltage, to the battery's float voltage, on heavy bass notes. And, if your system doesn't even come close to taxing the alt, again, correct. But....for the majority of guys that only have one alt, and 2000-3000+ Watts, you could get close to the alts max operating output. And, when you have blinking headlights, only at or near full volume, you probably need a cap.

I remember reading in a thread on here just a couple weeks ago, someone arguing that caps are actually worse, because they put so much stress on the alt because they have to keep recharging constantly.

I disagree with that 1) because theyre so small, its recharged in no time, 2) it saves the alt from the power spikes/draws from long bass notes.

Im not a genius by far when it comes to car audio, but I do know a decent ammount, and I cannot see a cap hurting in any way shape or form.

I have a new Duralast Gold battery, along with a midsized Kintetik cell in the back, and my volt gauge when running reads 14.5-15 volts, and the lowest ive ever gotten it to go with long low notes is about 13.

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

Thank you sir for that lengthy explanation

The caps I found are 20 dollars each. The guy is just getting out of the stereo scene and selling all his equipment for cheap.

I'm going to install the following in this order (as I have money):
1. Big 3 Upgrade
2. Better battery under hood (what would be a good one?)
3. 2 Capacitors/Change wiring for subs from 4 gauge to a run of 1/0 gauge
4. High Output Alternator
5. More capacitors
6. Second amplifier and other set of subs.
7. Sell both amps and invest in heavy duty class-d amplifier.

How many capacitors is to much? Is there a point when I need to just look at a Kinetik battery instead of capacitors? I'm thinking like 2 2-farad capacitors per amp and when I upgrade to the Class-D just wire them all together.

 

[jrowe6]

my opinion on capacitors is to have just a little bit more than you need. what i have always been told is that a capacitor is either 100% full, charging, or discharging all the way down to empty. it cannot start to discharge and then charge again before it fully discharges. meaning if you have 10 times more capacitance you have to discharge 10 times as long and charge 10 times as long. i prefer to keep the charging/discharging cycles as short as possible. the purpose of the cap is to be quick. having the extra juice during the discharge is great and more would not be bad, but it would take longer to recharge.

i cant say how big a difference it would make. the easiest way to go about things would be to ad 1 cap at a time till you get the desired affect, then at the point where adding more makes no difference or has a negative affect you can stop adding them or maybe take one out.

$20 per cap is a sweet deal, you should jump all over that and buy as many as you can. you can always sell the extras on ebay for like $50+shipping

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

Yeah, I'm buying as many as I can... He only has 2 and his system was a LOT more powerful than mine, so I'm hoping they'll work pretty good. Even if this just helps me with my current setup till my pay raise in Summer I'll be happy. It's killing me to ride around with no subwoofers.

On Tuesday I'll probably work on the Big 3 upgrade. Where can I get a "one way wire" for the B+ to Battery cable? So juice can go from alternator to battery but not vice versa?

I had done the Big 3 with 4 gauge cable before, but the volt gauge read consistently low until I removed everything... I'll try it again 1 wire at a time and see what happens but I found it weird then and wondering if it'll happen again. I'll keep ya informed.

 

[HCCA 250]

my opinion on capacitors is to have just a little bit more than you need. what i have always been told is that a capacitor is either 100% full, charging, or discharging all the way down to empty. it cannot start to discharge and then charge again before it fully discharges. meaning if you have 10 times more capacitance you have to discharge 10 times as long and charge 10 times as long. i prefer to keep the charging/discharging cycles as short as possible. the purpose of the cap is to be quick. having the extra juice during the discharge is great and more would not be bad, but it would take longer to recharge.

Sorry, this is not correct. A cap does not have to fully discharge, before it can charge again. A cap will discharge until the demand cycle is over. In other words, if the bass note overruns the charging system capacity for 1/4 of a second...that's how long the cap will discharge. Then it will charge back to the alt's float voltage. If the bass note is a full second, that's how long the cap will discharge, before charging back. Now, if you have a large bank of caps...let's just say 50 of them. That might be a ridiculous amount, but to make a point we'll just assume that many are in your vehicle. The bass note hits, and your charging system can't deliver. Your caps come in, at that point. They will discharge...as much as is needed, and then charge back. The caps will not drain below the voltage of the battery. They share the same charging path, after all. I stated this in my previous post, but apparently I'll have to say it again. You CANNOT have too much capacitance.
Note: You cannot use caps to susbstitute for a large enough alternator.

If your caps don't charge back after a large transient (bass hit), before they are called upon to deliver again, you need a larger alt. If you think about it, for there to be too much demand on the cap to deliver energy, that cannot be replaced before the next transient, your alt was too small to begin with. If you have room for three alternators, and 6 batteries, you could effectively have more than enough power, and no need for a cap. But, most Explorers do NOT have room for a second alt....unless you want to go to ridiculous extremes to make a second one fit. Other vehicles...like an Excursion, or F150, might have room under the hood for two...maybe three alts. If you have the room, more alts (with their corresponding batteries) would be better. BUT, we are kinda stuck having to use one alt, and the alternator casing for the Explorer only allows for around 250 amps of output, when cold. After an alt warms up, it's output drops. So, you will realistically have 230 amps of output max. And, remember, your max alt output is at higher engine rpm's. At idle, it might put out closer to 150 amps!!

So, we Explorer owners can benefit from more capacitance. That is, so long as we are not asking the charging system to carry more of a constant load than the alt is rated for. So, if you're running three amplifiers, with 120 amps worth of continuous current draw each, (assuming the 250 amp alt for an Explorer) a cap will not help you. If you are like many of us, and you carry a continuous current draw below the alt's full capacity, and bass notes peak out the system just a few amps above what the charging system can respond to, you will benefit from using caps.

3. 2 Capacitors/Change wiring for subs from 4 gauge to a run of 1/0 gauge

Blacksheep, are you talking about power wire to the sub amps, or speaker wire to the subs? Because there should be no need for wire that size for the speaker wire to the subs. Larger power wire to the amps will only be useful if the amps can accept that wire guage.

2. Better battery under hood (what would be a good one?)

I have an Odyysey 1750. It's a direct replacement for the factory battery size. No modifications to the battery location needed. And, it's an AGM style. This type can be deeply discharged without fear of battery damage.

On Tuesday I'll probably work on the Big 3 upgrade. Where can I get a "one way wire" for the B+ to Battery cable? So juice can go from alternator to battery but not vice versa?

HUH???!

 

[JarvisB]

what kind of capacitor are you getting for 20 bucks?

just make sure it is not a crappy one.

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

Blacksheep, are you talking about power wire to the sub amps, or speaker wire to the subs? Because there should be no need for wire that size for the speaker wire to the subs. Larger power wire to the amps will only be useful if the amps can accept that wire guage.

Wiring from the battery to the distribution block in the rear. My current setup is 4 gauge wiring from battery to distribution block in cargo bay, then from distribution block to amp are two 8 guage wires (EACH amp has 2 power inputs/outputs). I'm going to be using more power down the road, might as well upgrade now while I can.

HUH???!

It's some kind of wire or fuse I've read about that let's energy through only in one direction. So let's say if my battery dies and I need a jumpstart, if I hook cables up to my battery the energy won't hit my alternator fully. Kinda like a "one way wire"... Idk, it's something I thought I read about, just another way to protect the alternator from seeing to much power.

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

what kind of capacitor are you getting for 20 bucks

It's an older Pro Acoustik

I'm assured they work. For 20 dollars it's to good a deal not to pass up. Even if I get other ones in the future, this will at least give me some more breathing room.

 

[HCCA 250]

It's some kind of wire or fuse I've read about that let's energy through only in one direction. So let's say if my battery dies and I need a jumpstart, if I hook cables up to my battery the energy won't hit my alternator fully. Kinda like a "one way wire"... Idk, it's something I thought I read about, just another way to protect the alternator from seeing to much power.

Ummmm, no. The only thing that can stop AC flow in one direction is a diode. As for DC, nothing flows in only one direction. I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Just use a 1/0 run of power wire for the ground, and power wire. You'll be fine.

I think your caps should do the job well enough.