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To Fix or Not to Fix

mbrando1994

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 17, 2015
Messages
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Year, Model & Trim Level
2003 Ford Ex XLT
4.0 V6
Hey all,

I have a 2003 ford explorer 4.0 SOHC with the dreaded timing chain issue. Rattling is now getting louder at idle, there is also a rough idle condition. It goes away when revving the engine even very lightly but will return at rpm's of about 2500.

In all of your experience would it be worth it to purchase a reman engine, and repair it that way, or rip out the engine now and rebuild the timing (note I'd have to buy a crane, stand, etc. and I've never pulled one before)?

My other option would be to drive it until it dies and then just purchase a different vehicle (I'd keep this one to fix one day)

It has almost 200k miles and a myriad of other problems, My worst nightmare is that I fix the engine and the next week the transmission decides to take a dump.

Let me know your thoughts,
Thanks!
 



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Hey all,

I have a 2003 ford explorer 4.0 SOHC with the dreaded timing chain issue. Rattling is now getting louder at idle, there is also a rough idle condition. It goes away when revving the engine even very lightly but will return at rpm's of about 2500.

In all of your experience would it be worth it to purchase a reman engine, and repair it that way, or rip out the engine now and rebuild the timing (note I'd have to buy a crane, stand, etc. and I've never pulled one before)?

My other option would be to drive it until it dies and then just purchase a different vehicle (I'd keep this one to fix one day)

It has almost 200k miles and a myriad of other problems, My worst nightmare is that I fix the engine and the next week the transmission decides to take a dump.

Let me know your thoughts,
Thanks!
@mbrando1994
I'd say the key to considerations would be those "myriad" of other problems........are they affecting usability of the vehicle, serious, or inconvenience........can they be neglected and not expect one to cause a breakdown? Regarding pulling the engine yourself, the first time is real serious business......I did it at 16......have done dozens more, but each job produces some new experience. You would likely remove the eng. anyway to replace right side timing components, unless working under the vehicle with transmission removed appeals. Buying a used engine is risky business, a rebuild I would consider. 200K is good life out of any vehice, but I personally hate to "throw them away", did that with a 1950 Plymouth, '55 Merc., '58 T-Bird.....imp
 






I'm probably qualified to answer this, at least from one perspective:
  • amateur mechanic (very); but grew up in Detroit w/7 brothers and someone was always working on a car;
  • bought 179k 2002 XLS (4.0l SOHC) two years ago with busted engine due to timing chain, good body, for $500 + towing
  • picked up used cherry picker and engine stand for $200 in S.E. Mich. (craigslist is your friend; but need access to a p.u. truck);
  • bought the $150 (?) OTC Timing tool;
  • the truck had sat in a woods for 3+ years w/lots of mice damage. I wound up also replacing fuel pump; all four calipers + discs + pads; starter; alternator; radiator; a/c lines; a/c compressor; power steering high pressure hose (b/c I damaged the original standing in the engine bay); blower motor; air box door; driver's door handle; driver's door latch; plugs; wires; fuel injectors; water pump; thermostat housing; thermostat; all hoses; all belts; idler pulley & tensioner; one exhaust manifold; two forward catalytic converters (non-oem); exhaust from Y-pipe back; eventually tires; one headlight; windshield; replaced airbag trigger; repaired seat belt wiring that caused airbag light; eventually replaced both front struts; front inner and outer tie rods; eventually both front wheel bearings; all filters and fluids; and some parts I'm forgetting;
  • had to repair/replace lots of wiring, too (including that tricky center antilock brake sensor that fits on the rear diff);
  • swapped 1 &3/4 trailer hitch with a 2-inch Class III hitch from another '02 Explorer
It took me the better part of a summer to get everything set up and worked out, nights and weekends. I pulled the engine (not easy, especially first time), pulled the heads and sent them to machine shop (bent Bank 1 valves); ordered the complete Cloyes timing chain kit; installed it; noted some what I thought was minor block damage from the right rear timing chain failure and attempted to repair; spent lots of time picking out bits of broken chain guide out from the lower end.

I pulled the pistons on this job, and was very impressed how new the cylinder walls looked (cross hatching and all). Very impressed. I think these lower ends are generally solid and built to go $300k.

Put it all back together, managed to get it back into the truck w/o breaking the new radiator (removing/installing these radiators is a huge pain). Drove like **** for 20 miles. Took it too a mechanic to sort out some fuel pump wiring issue I missed. Picked it up a month later, drove 10 miles, and blew a hole in the block. Either the damage from the failed timing chain or I screwed something up installing the new crank bearings, etc.

AAA towed it back to my place where it sat for 1.4 years, until last summer.

Found on Craigslist a 2002 XLT built the same month/year as mine with some body and other damage. But the engine seem to run fine (116k miles). Paid $200 for it + $100 tow.

Pulled the engines from both trucks; pulled the new timing components off old engine and installed on "donor" engine. Decided not to touch the heads (since no timing failure) or lower end. I pulled the lower-mileage torque converter and the solenoid pack off the donor truck and installed them on the donee vehicle for good measure.

Put it all back together. Ran kinda ****ty. Lot's of misfires at idle. Drove from Michigan to Texas to Georgia to Michigan that way (w/old struts and tires). Made it.

Lots of hangwringing and help on this forum later, I decided to re-time bank 1 (did not need to pull the engine for this; relatively easy with the OTC tool). My timing on that bank was off, it turns out.

I've put close to $5k into it since two summers ago. With the new stuts, inner and outer tie rods; upper ball joints, new tires, fresh alignment, and a new rear u-joint (this is a 2wd vehicle), the truck rides like new. I LOVE IT! I'm letting my kid drive the Volvo S60, I like driving this truck so much.

Oh, late last summer, I started losing overdrive on highway on my way back from a 200-mile family trip. No big deal; I slowed down to 60-65 mph and made it home fine. Ordered the servo bore kit ($200) from the guys in Wisconsin, and with a buddy's help (he had access to a lift), installed it (overdrive servo only) a couple of weeks later. The transmission runs perfectly since; I'd have no hesitation driving this truck cross-country.
____

Sorry for the long story, but if someone had told me what I was in for when I started, I'd for sure walked away. I'm glad I didn't. Tons of time and several thousand dollars in parts and service. But I actually got a lot of satisfaction doing this work, most of it possible due to the excellent guidance of contributors to this forum (including Imp). And now RockAuto loves me!

From your comments, it sounds like you might be better off selling the truck for a couple hundred dollars to someone who wants to rebuild it. If you decide to hang onto it, you'll definitely need to arrange other transportation for a few months, sounds like. Good luck.
 






I know first hand that with the 4.6L V-8 the timing chains can be replaced without engine removal. Is this not the case with the V-6?
 






V6 requires pulling the engine to replace the rear chain set. Can't remember if there is both front and rear, but it's the rear set that is impossible to change out without removing the engine.
 






I've been pretty good about successfully fixing this car when need be, I have most of the tools I'd need except the timing tool and an engine stand and crane.

The part that worries me the most is actually taking the engine apart and getting it all back together without accidentally moving or breaking anything timing wise.

It's trade in is valued at about 200 bucks right now so I'm not going to get rid of it, but I definitely don't think spending thousands on a car that old is worth it right now, I'd much rather spend a few thousand more and get a decent newer one
 






V6 requires pulling the engine to replace the rear chain set. Can't remember if there is both front and rear, but it's the rear set that is impossible to change out without removing the engine.
@apenland01
Not completely so, if the transmission is removed and eng. supported appropriately, the passenger side (rear chain drive) can be accessed from beneath the vehicle. Not that I'd do it, though. imp
 






@apenland01
Not completely so, if the transmission is removed and eng. supported appropriately, the passenger side (rear chain drive) can be accessed from beneath the vehicle. Not that I'd do it, though. imp

Okay so update: I used a stethoscope to finally figure out the point where the clicking is at its loudest, I hear nothin on the intake, exhausts, valve covers and bolts, belt drive area, alternator, etc. but as soon as I put the tip anywhere on the fuel rail the clicking is extremely loud and prominent. I’ve pulled the pan and no plastic pieces at all both in the oil or in the pickup tube. Also no metal in pan.

I do have a rough idle and hesitation along with performance issues. I don’t want to assume it’s the injectors but what would these findings point you guys to?
 






Can you figure out how to post a video with sound to this forum? I'd be especially interested in the sound from the very right (passenger) rear of the engine, and the left (driver) front.

I'm thinking the fuel rail could transmit sound from just about anywhere. You could also run a couple of bottles of Techtron complete fuel system cleaner through the tank and resolve most fuel injector problems. And clicking injectors are not normally described as "rattle".

Its good that there is no debris in the oil pan. Very good sign, but it may just mean you caught the problem before the guide disintegrates instead of after.

I'd pull the right (passenger) valve cover(s) and inspect the secondary timing cassettes if you have any suspicion of bad timing components.
 






Can you figure out how to post a video with sound to this forum? I'd be especially interested in the sound from the very right (passenger) rear of the engine, and the left (driver) front.

I'm thinking the fuel rail could transmit sound from just about anywhere. You could also run a couple of bottles of Techtron complete fuel system cleaner through the tank and resolve most fuel injector problems. And clicking injectors are not normally described as "rattle".

Its good that there is no debris in the oil pan. Very good sign, but it may just mean you caught the problem before the guide disintegrates instead of after.

I'd pull the right (passenger) valve cover(s) and inspect the secondary timing cassettes if you have any suspicion of bad timing components.

I'm not too sure how to post that, only problem is that I don't hear that sound ANYWHERE else, I spent the better part of an hour sticking the stethescope on literally anything I could reach- bolts, covers, the heads, especially areas close to where the secondary chains are, and nothing, but as soon as I get close to the rails or touch them, it's tick city. I would describe the noise as a consistent tick, that increases with rpms. The noise definitely changes depending on which plug wire I pulled when I pulled each one individually and started the engine. It seemed to still be there but slowed down considerably. The engine also shakes around quite a bit at idle, no noticeable vacuum leaks, mounts look good, and the fuel trim numbers don't indicate anything to be concerned about there. There is definitely a rattle around 2500 rpms that gets really loud, but I don't know if this issue is the same or a different sound altogether
 






So your original post declared you had a timing chain issue. Now you think there is no timing chain issue. Other than this ticking problem, what issue are experiencing?

You also say you have a 'definite rattle' over 2500 rpm. Well, with good transmission, you will rarely go over 2500 rpms on this truck except on hard acceleration. Where does the stethoscope tell you the 'definite rattle' is coming from at that rpm (since likely a different source than the ticking)?
 






I honestly believed it was the timing issue. Only time I experience that rattle over 2500 rpms is under hard acceleration, which doesn't happen often. I haven't testing that rattle with the stethoscope yet since it's hard to hold the throttle open steady at that range while poking around with the scope and not bumping any moving parts, I plan to test that soon when I have another set of hands.

Other than the ticking, I'm experiencing a rough shake whenever the car is in park or idle and braked, it goes away under load and while moving at speed. I'm also experiencing hesitation and loss of power, at WOT it takes sometimes a few seconds to actually pick up and get going (only did this a few times to test fuel trim numbers, I don't normally drive like a lunatic)

From my experience it almost seems like it is misfiring, but no misfire codes and fuel trim seems normal. I didn't mean for this to get confusing or to change my story, I'm just posting my findings as I go through diagnosing this thing.
 






Check fuel pressure at rail. Could have a pump or filter issue.
 






Not to sound stupid but how would one test that? As long as I owned the vehicle the filter hasn't been replaced, and I know there's an issue with the fuel level sending unit but not sure about the actual pump itself. Also note tonight: The ticking noise I hear at idle is pretty loud and goes away completely if I even just step on the gas slightly. As soon as I let off the gas, whether while coasting or at a stop, the noise comes back consistently. Any ideas on that?
 






There's a Schrader valve on the front of one bank of fuel rail. You can find a shop to do it or buy a guage on Amazon. (I had to buy two b/c cheap brass adapter on first disintegrated.) Hook up, turn key to "run", read dial. You can then then start truck and recheck under load.
 






The 2500 RPM rattle is more than likely the tensioner on the primary chain. They are notorious for failing, especially the early ones. The springs could be sitting in the cradle and you would never see them. Only way to know would be to pull the water pump and timing cover.
 






I am possibly buying a newer car today, that will grant me the ability to tear into the explorer in my spare time without worry. This way if it is a simple fix, I'll have two reliable vehicles, and if not, it'll have to sit until I have the time and money to put a new engine into it since I feel that's the best way to go if it has a serious timing problem as I don't have any experience in replacing those parts
 






Well just got back from the car lot and turns out there's no way I can afford a newer suv. So brings me back to having to fix this thing again.

Something I never understood about the timing issue with these is this: I've heard horror stories of how after replacing tensioners the chains would slip or break, is that something that normally happens? If not, am I right in assuming that catching this problem before the guides shatter and replacing the tensioners should resolve the issue?
 






(i) plenty of horror stories around timing chain's on the 4.0L SOHC Colovn V6, but not as you describe;

(ii) yes, but need to change all timing components, not just tensioners.
 



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I've put close to $15k on since last summer. With the new stuts, inner and outer tie rods; upper ball joints, new tires, fresh alignment, and a new rear u-joint (this is a 2wd vehicle), the truck rides like new. I LOVE IT! I'm letting my kid drive the Volvo S60, I like driving this truck so much.
.

Yeah - I’ve put about the same into mine in the last 5 months... rebuilt transmission, AC system, rebuilt engine, alignment, new coil on plugs, yada yada yada. Probably not the best use of money, but darn if I don’t just love driving the car. I have a BMW 328d that is a really nice car, but I like driving the Explorer more (as odd as that may sound).

To the OP: Maybe pay an hour of mechanic’s time to help you diagnose exactly what it is (if it’s the tensioner and/or the chains). That may help guide your plan of action. But doing both tensioner and timing chains is going to give you the best long-term result.
 






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