Tuning options for 2016 Sport???

[16Sport]

I'm searching for reputable tuners who offer a performance tune for the 2016 Sport. I currently have a tune and extensive mods by Livernois and have not been able to figure out a misfire issue with exhaust smoke at high rpm after downshifting. After 2 months and thousands in expenses to diagnose and replace parts, I would like to buy a different tune to compare and see if the problem still exists. I'm running the stock tune at the moment with zero issues but after the extent of bolt-ons I'm looking for a lot more performance than a stock tune. I contacted Lund Racing but they do not offer a tune for anything newer than 2014. Id also be up for driving to a tuner in New England area if one exists who has an all wheel dyno. At this point my frustration level is so high that money is not an option if it fixes the issue. Any input would be greatly appreciated....I love this vehicle and want to enjoy its potential.

 

[slicky]

There is no one else right now.
Does the problem still exist when you go back to the stock tune?
Ill buy your LMS tuner from you when you are done with it.

 

[Livernois]

To be fair, there were no issues with your tuning until you added a mystery fuel. There were several passes made on the track without issue.

 

[JEFFSMACHINE]

Unleashed tuning is well respected on the F150 forums, as well as livernois.
Hope You get it figured out.

 

[16Sport]

Livernois,
The information you stated is incorrect and Im kinda tired of seeing your responses on here when you wont email me back elsewhere! Offering a solution instead of a defense would look better in the eyes of many. The "mystery fuel" I used was VP Racing MS100 which i clearly verified in more than one other post and direct emails to your company. I still have the empty 5 gallon can as reference.
Also i had never stated or made a pass with just your tune/mods before adding race fuel. I loaded your tune and installed almost every mod you offer and drove locally around town for several days, at no point going onto the highway or at speeds where the issue typically exists. The night i added fuel and hit the highway to the track is when i noticed the issue at highway speeds under a hard pull when downshifting. Heavy engine surges with noises and tons of black exhaust smoke!
I spent many weeks contacting your company asking for suggestions. When i called your parts guy on 3 occasions he was short with me over the phone and had no interest in answering questions. Nope sorry i dont have any answers is all I heard.
Emails between Myself and Anthony and Jamie have also ceased on your end. Your support team told me they were 110% sure it was my plugs after id replaced them twice already! Your tuner told jamie that he refused to even read my entire email because he was so sure of himself. I trusted you and overnighted you "precision gapped plugs" only to find mine were just as well gapped when yours didnt solve anything at my expense. when the race fuel used was brought up on the forum you stated "problem solved" and stated my injectors were plugged or fouled from using the wrong fuel. A further online email from your company suggested replacing the injectors with new, dropping the entire fuel system and flushing everything. Since this was your Only suggestion on the table i moved forward with the repairs. Still no improvement! 5 more hours of diagnostics were done locally to ensure factory sensors were working properly and live data was carefully watched.
Ive now spent thousands of dollars replacing every possible part that could have been affected and your still blaming the fuel i used 2 months and 30 tanks ago. It should be noted that I also contacted VP racing directly and they assured me that the Ecoboost direct injection engine will run perfeclty fine on their MS100 fuel.
As stated in my initial post my Explorer sport currently runs perfect with the stock tune. The only time i have issues is when your performance tune is installed. Ive also spoken to another tuning company who stated this really sounds like a tuning/fuel pressure problem and that it may not set a code even if the tune is to blame.
Im just a working class guy that is out Almost $8 grand on mods and replacing parts your company suggested that were fine all along. Am i upset about all that money gone and only having a stock tune to show for it? Sure who wouldnt be?
But i understand problems happen and performance is not a perfect world. But if you no longer are willing to respond to my emails or offer advice, please dont hinder the only option I have which is to seek a resolution elsewhere...

 

[need-a-cage]

Did you read my PM about another tuner who can actually datalog and help you? Livernois has also answered 0 of my questions posted in your other thread. Makes me think the guy posting on here from Livernois is not a tuner. Get an SCT product so you can datalog for your tuner to interpret the data. Even if you still have the problem, they'll be able to use the datalog to point you in the correct direction, instead of continuing to guess what is wrong and twll you to replace everything.

 

[slicky]

I cant imagine loading an aftermarket map on faith without any ability to monitor and datalog. This is why I am waiting for a product that will have the ability to do that. 16Sport, maybe going with a stock tune until SCT is supporting the 16 is the way to go. Early next year from what I understand

 

[need-a-cage]

Here was the PM I sent you.

You may want to give these guys a call.

http://southernspeedinc.com/

You may get some free advice, or they may just say they can't help you unless you buy their tuner, which CAN datalog. I think I am going to try them out when the time comes, especially after Livernois dicked you around so much with such confidence in what they told you to change. It is real easy for others to tell you to spend money. Anyway, a guy I race with swears by these guys. He has used their tuner ever since the first Ecoboost equipped F150 was sold. I think he is on his 3rd one. He keeps getting the latest model. His 2015 F150 supercab 6.5' bed 4x4 ran mid 14's stock and has now run 12.59 @ 105mph and I believe that is just with the tune.

My cousin filmed this run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHVoS1BTk2U

I only went out 3 times this year because I blew a head gasket in the Mustang so I didn't talk to the F150 owner much, but he did give me SSI's number and told me I wouldn't be disappointed. I need to get the Stang back together but we're saving up for the Explorer!!

I am not sure about 2016 support. Their website says 2013 and newer. I didn't want to bug him too much until I actually got my Sport. Lpoks like it will be 2-3 weeks before it shows up.

 

[16Sport]

Thanks for the info!
I havent given up on Livernois. I spent alot of money with them and planned on going alot further with mods next year. If they started to take serious interest and work with me Id be more than happy to post positive results and start making videos at the track giving them credit. At first the support was decent but after a few weeks It seemed clear they had given up on me. im hoping they will come through, rethink my running issues and stand behind their product. If it turns out im in the wrong and it has nothing to do with their tune ill gladly pay for any tech support they have provided....

 

[JEFFSMACHINE]

SSI has the worst reputation of any tuner, Google is Your Friend.
Yes, Sean makes these things go fast, but at the expense of reliability.
And You will not get any help from him after the fact, regardless of how recent or how much You spent.

 

[need-a-cage]

I'll have to do more research, but I did Google it a while ago and didn't find anything. The owner of the truck did warn me about some stuff on one of the forums. I definitely don't want a tune that aggressive. I think a 13.7 would be good and not pushing it too hard. I think I'll ask for an 87 octane street tune and run that most the time with 91 octane. That way the tuner won't turn the boost up too much. Of course I would also get a 91 performance tune to run occasionally, like if I can ever get it away from my wife and sneak it to the track.

 

[Livernois]

I cant imagine loading an aftermarket map on faith without any ability to monitor and datalog. This is why I am waiting for a product that will have the ability to do that. 16Sport, maybe going with a stock tune until SCT is supporting the 16 is the way to go. Early next year from what I understand

You can log and monitor with whatever you would like. We will review all of the logs that you would like us to. We just do not have a need to use logs to create your tuning when we can access your build information and our proprietary tuning software gives us more access to more tables than anyone else.

There is little to no support for most all model years newer than 13...they have had 3 years! There is nothing new that is to be discovered in the next few weeks. That is the normal response when asked about tuning support availability.

http://southernspeedinc.com/

SSI has the worst reputation of any tuner, Google is Your Friend.
Yes, Sean makes these things go fast, but at the expense of reliability.
And You will not get any help from him after the fact, regardless of how recent or how much You spent.

THAT IS THE WORST THING THAT YOU COULD EVER RECOMMEND TO SOMEONE! Like [MENTION=291010]JEFFSMACHINE[/MENTION] said, Google them. They have a LONG history of negative happenings. You can look at a few forums that you can search through:
f150forum.com
ecoboostperformance.com
ecoboostownersforum.com
f150ecoboost.net

You can search for SSI, southern speed, so cal diablo, etc.... There have been more than a handful of name changes over the years. Wonder why...

At first the support was decent but after a few weeks It seemed clear they had given up on me. im hoping they will come through, rethink my running issues and stand behind their product. If it turns out im in the wrong and it has nothing to do with their tune ill gladly pay for any tech support they have provided....

Your support has been stellar at all times.

In my personal email box I have 33 emails with you. In our tuning/info boxes there are 38 emails. This does not include any internal emails that we have back and forth with the calibration team. I would saw that 71 email exchanges over almost the same number of days is exceptional service. Nor does this include all of the phone conversations or emails that have been sent from email addresses that I do not have access to. We have not charged a dime for any of this support. I would say that that level of service is better than anyone else would provide.

We have proprietary tuning support for over 100 different vehicles across 4 different makes not including separate or duplicated vehicles. We are an almost 40 employee strong, 36k sqft facility, w/ five 5-axis CNC machines, 3 dynos (with a new baby one the way), 15 lifts, a bevy of manual engine build machines not to mention all of the other smaller machines that we have to have for our client and other sorted OEM projects. We do have hundreds of other clients and projects that require tuning either remote or in person. We receive vehicles, engines and heads from almost every single major vendor on this forum (and others) on a daily basis. Yet every time that you have asked questions or had issues we have helped. You are literally the only person that is having issues with the tuning, and you stated in your other thread that the issues started,"around 30 minutes" after adding something other than pump fuel into your car.

Again, we have been and are still committed to helping, but to say that we have not helped is not the case. We have made several versions of tunes for you and there has not been a single DTC reported by your car. There is a mechanical issue at play. That is why the car only "acts up" when we add more power VS stock. If it were tune related, the tune would cause issues from the beginning. Tunes do not just change over time. It is like a lightswitch if it is on it's on, and inversely if it is off it is off. There is no inbetween. With the exception of new spark plugs all of the "solutions" that you have tried was at the advice of the guy that you are paying to work on your car. We did not suggest replacing your injectors and etc. I even differed to you and your better judgement when you emailed me and asked me directly, as I was not going to recommend something that drastic without having the injectors in hand to see. So, I do not know how we can be vilified here. We have worked with you extensively, and attempted to dissuade you from blindly throwing money at an unknown issue. We can only make recommendations. The ultimate decision is yours.

 

[need-a-cage]

SSI is changing their name again! I searched again the other day and I could not find all of the bad stuff you guys are referring to. I wish the My Calibrator would datalog, so I could at least see what is going on stock vs the tune, and also when something does go wrong and you need to troubleshoot it. I will need to add a datalogger to the cost of the Livernois solution.

How many different tunes does Livernois offer? Are there set tunes to choose from or can you specify what you want and get a custom tune? I just see 91 and 93 performance and tow. We have 87, 89, nd 91 in Cali. I would like the 91 performance tune and a more mild version of that tune that would not have the shifts too firm or push the motor too much. If it shifts too firmly, my wife will be pissed and claim that I wrecked her car! I want to be able to accelerate hard and still have a smooth shift. It needs to last forever so I don't want to stress it too much.

 

[Livernois]

SSI is changing their name again! I searched again the other day and I could not find all of the bad stuff you guys are referring to. I wish the My Calibrator would datalog, so I could at least see what is going on stock vs the tune, and also when something does go wrong and you need to troubleshoot it. I will need to add a datalogger to the cost of the Livernois solution.

​Anyone taking the native values and recalculating them into something else that gives a chance for things to be miscalculated. This is the biggest issues we see with data logging or tune monitoring. If someone looks at AFR on a monitoring device, that value is already calculated. But the issue is what conversion are they using? 14.64? 14.08? something else? Now, what about what is in your tank. If they are assuming e10, and you have something more like e6, that instantly makes the applied conversion incorrect. Then, what if they aren't grabbing the right data point from the ECM to log it? What if they are grabbing one with an offset already added in? or a delay? or a commanded VS actual average?

You can see where one simple item like "AFR" is all of a sudden riddled with chances of incorrect data being displayed and/or gathered. Now, we haven't even started talking about boost, or any other myriad of items that could be logged. You see, the Data points that almost all dataloggers use are SAE. Now, SAE standards are nice, BUT they are not designed for someone to do calibration from. They are for repair shops to help diagnose issues with vehicles. So, the level of precision, and refresh rate is not what's needed to do proper calibration development. If you are using a data point with a 200ms refresh rate, but the actual value in the ECM refreshes every 8ms, then the ECM is updating 50x more frequently then what you are watching. Again, you start to see where the issues happen and it's easier to understand why we do not treat the EcoBoost like any other engine before it. Can someone get lucky and eventually end up with a tune that works by looking at the wrong data? Absolutely. Can they repeat those results over and over again without starting from scratch each time? Usually not. And it all stems from having the right knowledge, and data in the first place.

To make it a little easier to picture for most people. If Ford, GM, Chrysler, or any auto manufacturer could spend $30-50 on hardware to datalog and do calibration, why don't they? The answer is simple, you can't, it takes 10's of Thousands of dollars to have the right hardware just for the process to begin.

How many different tunes does Livernois offer? Are there set tunes to choose from or can you specify what you want and get a custom tune? I just see 91 and 93 performance and tow. We have 87, 89, nd 91 in Cali. I would like the 91 performance tune and a more mild version of that tune that would not have the shifts too firm or push the motor too much. If it shifts too firmly, my wife will be pissed and claim that I wrecked her car! I want to be able to accelerate hard and still have a smooth shift. It needs to last forever so I don't want to stress it too much.

We offer tuning for all octane levels above 87 octane, and then we offer performance and/or tow tuning for each. Typically, most guys load our most aggressive tuning and never look back. Sure the additional power has a bit to do with it, BUT the biggest reason is that the higher octane requiring tunes are also more fuel efficient. Higher octane fuels burn slower therefore they make more power and get better efficiency. By using better fueling you get better life from your vehicle to boot!

 

[need-a-cage]

I would always use 91 octane fuel. I just want a less aggressive tune for the wife with her daily driving. I wouldn't reprogram it every time I drive it, but I would put the more aggressive tune in when I took it to the track or if I was driving on a road trip. I just figure it would last longer if the boost wasn't turned all the way up all the time. I think my wife gets into the throttle more than she says. Her mileage is horrible!

I would learn what all the datalogged parameters mean and use it appropriately. I am already doing that with my 93 Mustang. It took a lot of time to learn what all the scalars, functions, and tables were doing and reprogram the computer to run a boosted car when it was meant to run NA, especially since the displacement is different, the injectors are 3 times the original size, the throttlebody is bigger, the MAF has a different transfer function, etc. It would be nice to have a document to go along with the logging to give you some info.

 

[slicky]

Livernois, my concern is that every vehicle inherits some variances, but from what I understand a tune is developed on a single vehicle with that vehicle unique traits. There is no opportunity to datalog and tweak for ones specific car? Is the strategy to leave sufficient margin of safety to account for car to car differences? Without logging/monitoring, my concern is that if its knocking, I wouldnt even know it. With my other vehicle (Subaru WRX) I can monitor knock sensor feedback among other parameters. With that car, you kinda have to. That engine is somewhat fragile.

 

[need-a-cage]

Especially with Cali fuel. I watched the knock sensors with my Diablo in my Ram and pulled some advance out of the canned tune so it wouldn't sense knock and pull a bunch of timing.
My main reason is to also use it for diagnostics. Very helpfull with intermittent problems. Compare a good log vs one when the problem is present.

 

[16Sport]

You can log and monitor with whatever you would like. We will review all of the logs that you would like us to. We just do not have a need to use logs to create your tuning when we can access your build information and our proprietary tuning software gives us more access to more tables than anyone else.

There is little to no support for most all model years newer than 13...they have had 3 years! There is nothing new that is to be discovered in the next few weeks. That is the normal response when asked about tuning support availability.




THAT IS THE WORST THING THAT YOU COULD EVER RECOMMEND TO SOMEONE! Like [MENTION=291010]JEFFSMACHINE[/MENTION] said, Google them. They have a LONG history of negative happenings. You can look at a few forums that you can search through:
f150forum.com
ecoboostperformance.com
ecoboostownersforum.com
f150ecoboost.net

You can search for SSI, southern speed, so cal diablo, etc.... There have been more than a handful of name changes over the years. Wonder why...




Your support has been stellar at all times.

In my personal email box I have 33 emails with you. In our tuning/info boxes there are 38 emails. This does not include any internal emails that we have back and forth with the calibration team. I would saw that 71 email exchanges over almost the same number of days is exceptional service. Nor does this include all of the phone conversations or emails that have been sent from email addresses that I do not have access to. We have not charged a dime for any of this support. I would say that that level of service is better than anyone else would provide.

We have proprietary tuning support for over 100 different vehicles across 4 different makes not including separate or duplicated vehicles. We are an almost 40 employee strong, 36k sqft facility, w/ five 5-axis CNC machines, 3 dynos (with a new baby one the way), 15 lifts, a bevy of manual engine build machines not to mention all of the other smaller machines that we have to have for our client and other sorted OEM projects. We do have hundreds of other clients and projects that require tuning either remote or in person. We receive vehicles, engines and heads from almost every single major vendor on this forum (and others) on a daily basis. Yet every time that you have asked questions or had issues we have helped. You are literally the only person that is having issues with the tuning, and you stated in your other thread that the issues started,"around 30 minutes" after adding something other than pump fuel into your car.

Again, we have been and are still committed to helping, but to say that we have not helped is not the case. We have made several versions of tunes for you and there has not been a single DTC reported by your car. There is a mechanical issue at play. That is why the car only "acts up" when we add more power VS stock. If it were tune related, the tune would cause issues from the beginning. Tunes do not just change over time. It is like a lightswitch if it is on it's on, and inversely if it is off it is off. There is no inbetween. With the exception of new spark plugs all of the "solutions" that you have tried was at the advice of the guy that you are paying to work on your car. We did not suggest replacing your injectors and etc. I even differed to you and your better judgement when you emailed me and asked me directly, as I was not going to recommend something that drastic without having the injectors in hand to see. So, I do not know how we can be vilified here. We have worked with you extensively, and attempted to dissuade you from blindly throwing money at an unknown issue. We can only make recommendations. The ultimate decision is yours.

I guess our perspective of ongoing support is very different. You make it sound like we are emailing back and fourth daily and actively trying to diagnose my issue together. No true at all! If you look through those emails you will see that your only input has been to change the plugs, jamie saying if it was his vehicle to dump the fuel system and swap the injectors (guess u missed that one) and that I have an issue other than your tune. It may have been 70 emails but the Same advice over and over while my local mechanic has been the only person to suggest diagnostic options. Besides this forum your company emails ceased 2 weeks ago. My last email to you only asked what other fuel system parts could have been affected (if any) and where may i possibly look next since there are no issues or symptoms with the stock tune. I got no response back because you gave up on me! How is this ongoing support? Your long replies on here represent your company in a professional mannner but they do nothing to offer assistance. The fact remains that there are no mechanical issues with my vehicle as you implied and never were. If the race fuel was to blame then the new injectors would have resolved the problem.
I have scheduled next week with my local shop to remove your downpipes, exhaust, intake, map, t-stat, gapped plugs and tune. Once this labor is completed Ill be 100% stock and running like new again. As a first time trusting and loyal customer to Livernois I will have a combined financial loss of $7,000 and 2 months of hell just to be back to stock with a pile of useless parts. What a waste! With just a little more cooperation and less defensive excuses I think this all could have been resolved which would have resulted into ongoing cashflow with your company.
I have most of the original boxes for your performance parts ive purchased and they are all in new condition. Id gladly ship them back for a refund and you wont have to worry about hearing from me again. I purchased them with the understanding you could provide a working tune for them and this clearly has not happened.

 

[Livernois]

I would always use 91 octane fuel. I just want a less aggressive tune for the wife with her daily driving. I wouldn't reprogram it every time I drive it, but I would put the more aggressive tune in when I took it to the track or if I was driving on a road trip. I just figure it would last longer if the boost wasn't turned all the way up all the time. I think my wife gets into the throttle more than she says. Her mileage is horrible!

I would learn what all the datalogged parameters mean and use it appropriately. I am already doing that with my 93 Mustang. It took a lot of time to learn what all the scalars, functions, and tables were doing and reprogram the computer to run a boosted car when it was meant to run NA, especially since the displacement is different, the injectors are 3 times the original size, the throttlebody is bigger, the MAF has a different transfer function, etc. It would be nice to have a document to go along with the logging to give you some info.

If she drives aggressively that is the only time that she will feel the additional power. If she drives like Ms. Daisy the car will respond accordingly. So there is no reason to flip flop tuning. It is next to impossible to datalog accurately on the EcoBoosts. There are so many integral parameters that would not be able to be logged accurately due to mistimed sample rates from ECU to motor to OBDii port. The only way to accurately log on the newer platform is to use live tuning software like I said earlier. You Fox is from a COMPLETELY different universe!

Livernois, my concern is that every vehicle inherits some variances, but from what I understand a tune is developed on a single vehicle with that vehicle unique traits. There is no opportunity to datalog and tweak for ones specific car? Is the strategy to leave sufficient margin of safety to account for car to car differences? Without logging/monitoring, my concern is that if its knocking, I wouldnt even know it. With my other vehicle (Subaru WRX) I can monitor knock sensor feedback among other parameters. With that car, you kinda have to. That engine is somewhat fragile.

Nobody is saying that you cannot go and buy a cheap app or device to look at gauges...if that makes you feel better, by all means do so. The difference is that we are tuning YOUR vehicle using YOUR vehicle's build data. It is far more than simply matching a strategy. We are building extra logic into the tuning that allows for adaptive learning of environmental conditions, limited flexibility in fueling quality, and extra safety monitoring that is devised to save the car from itself. Hence why we have never had a failure, never changed our company name or lost the relationship that we have with the OEM's. We are testing tunes before vehicles even come out! We regularly have clone and dev cars here LONG before "insiders" even know about them! We know far more and have more experience on this platform than anyone else.

 

[Livernois]

[MENTION=289850]16Sport[/MENTION],

Just because I say that I would do after going through all of the other normal troubleshooting steps if it were my vehicle is far from a ringing endorsement to go and do it. I would have flashed it back to stock LONG before anything else. The fact of the matter is that there are absolutely no trouble codes produced tuned or stock.

The tune ran fine until you added a different fueling option.

We said to replace plugs, and after that was unsuccessful, load a lesser tune.

You decided to take advice from someone that stands to profit from you doing extra labor.

We did not tell you that you need replace anything else until taking it to a Ford dealer to have the vehicle's systems looked at with the stock tune loaded.

Again, tunes do not just stop working over time. They work or they don't. Just like any other piece of electronics. Your tune was perfectly fine, until like you said in emails and on the forum, you added a different fueling source that you received advice from a fuel vendor. Notice a trend? The people that would make a dollar are the ones that are giving you advice on what else to buy from them. We on the other hand, are telling you to take your vehicle in to the dealership for them to investigate using your warranty. That does not make us a single penny. We are trying to help, but you are ignoring our advice. There is nothing that we can do if you refuse to adhere to what we say.