V8 Down

[Centaurus5.0]

I'd guess 90% of 4R's failure are due to overheating from never changing the fluid (ie..break down of the AFT's friction properties) or towing in OD (extreme heat generated from the band engaging/disengaging repeatedly under load). The overheating cause clutches to burn (which shows itself as "dirty" fluid) and seals to become brittle and break. There is also early design flaws like excess wear in the accumulator piston bores (96-97) and OD servo bore and the like but symptoms like delayed shifting will show themselves well before a catastrophic failure. A side effect of this is the metal particles from the wear build up in the cooler, lines, passages, solenoids and increase wear everywhere in the trans, but still a 4R can go along time even under these conditions. The other problem, like with anything else, spring from oversight in quality control. Sometimes retainers just snap, welds give out or parts get fatigued from poor tolerances and sloppy manufacturing. In this case, there would be no signs in the fluid or funky shift behavior foretelling an impending doom.

Basic things I'm sure us all here already know. I'm just thinking out loud.

::edit::

Adding to what Don said, with your rig having well over 200,000 and if you're unsure if the cooler has ever been replaced, I'd go with a new cooler and "hose" the lines out, making sure no debris is left in them. Removing the radiator routing all together may also be a good idea.

 

[Centaurus5.0]

There anything different about installing one on a 4R70W? I've been told they're nearly identical

 

[RandomNerd2000]

Update, so the cooler and lines are apparently new, and as it turns out, this transmission appears to have been dropped, and have been slowly cracking over the time I've driven it? The bottom of the bell housing is noticeably damaged and what seems to have happened, is it seemingly just broke the bell housing slowly, there's a crack that's an older looking crack, suggesting a slow failure, eradicating the pump. The good news is I have the pan dropped, and the fluid is a hair darker than brand new ATF and there's a bit of metal in it, the big magnet has some filings on it too, also, there's a white plug just sitting in the pan? What's that?

Also, changing a 4R in the driveway is far from a fun job, especially on a truck that "weeps" some of about everything. Considering I've driven this truck well over a year and gave $200 cash for it, it sure doesn't owe me, it'd have been nice if it'd have waited two or three weeks though.

 

[CDW6212R]

That sounds like a company unit rebuild, finished and stored until sold, with a stock dip stick plug in the hole, which is pushed down in, after installation. Does that white plug have an o-ring on it?

The pump is a big component that could fail fast and leave the vehicle unmovable. Did the dash throw any codes, like a low pressure code for the EPC?

That what my 1999 5R55E did, there was so little pressure that the EPC couldn't keep up, and threw a code. But I had a small broken part in the pan, about 1/3 of a bearing half that told me it wasn't fixable in the truck.

Since you see metal in the fluid, remove the cooler without tipping/pouring it empty, and then pour it into a clean pan to see what comes out of the outlet side. If you see anything in that fluid, then there is more debris tha will come out after installation. That debris is what kills the next rebuilt trans. Then it has to have an extra filter between the cooler outlet and the trans, unless the coolers are replaced and the lines flushed.

 

[RandomNerd2000]

Yup, it does have an O-Ring, I was told it was used when installed, so who knows, probably luck of the draw on junkyard transmissions, this could be a product of last November's accident, the shock might've cracked it, or started the crack and it's grown as time went past. Nope, no codes whatsoever, no slipping either, it literally stopped and didn't go again. Can't I just swap coolers? Is the V6 and V8 cooler identical? I know the lines will just blow out with air pressure, they're slick inside.

 

[CDW6212R]

Yes, you can swap the front cooler, but the radiators differ from V6 to V8. The trans pumps the ATF out to the cooler and back into itself, straight into the valve body and guts. Any debris in the coolers will end up in the valve body, the worst place for anything. So be sure the lines and cooler are clean, or install an external filter. Mine was a typical $25 kit and bolted to the front of the radiator support, near the frame/body mount.

 

[RandomNerd2000]

I'm hoping that there's very little metal inside the cooler and that it all got contained within the transmission, the odds are slim but it never hurts to hope, I'll know more tomorrow when I flush the lines and cooler out and look at the fluid. I'm sorta of the opinion that probably for actually emptying the lines/cooler, hooking the air compressor up to the line via a fitting and rubber hose should work reasonably well, that'll send a nice burst of 120PSI air through the lines and bring a lot out hopefully.

 

[96eb96]

I suggest this cooler, it installs where the stock one does (just bend some straps that come with it, it is almost a factory fit). I'm sure you will be able to figure it out. My truck didn't come with a cooler, and I had to modify the plastic air guide behind the grille just a bit. You may not have to. I found it on ebay for about $40.

https://www.amazon.com/Hayden-Automotive-679-Rapid-Cool-Transmission/dp/B000C3BBKS

I drive steep hills in the summer and the temp dropped 30 deg. You can burn yourself on that thing after the truck stops.

 

[RandomNerd2000]

So, it's out, it's originally a 98 transmission that judging by the look of everything hasn't ever been touched, still has the factory front pump seal. In other news, no fluid remained in the lines, at all, they're empty? That's not the cause of the sudden stop though, when I removed the torque converter, the input shaft on the pump remained INSIDE of it, and judging by the cracking and the cracks in the bell housing this has been coming for a while, probably since the wreck in November. Now, I have more good news, in addition to the lines being empty, the TC I drained, it had fluid in it, little darkened, but NO metal inside of it, not one bit of weird discoloration. Now, if this is a testament to the quality of the 4R70W transmissions, the truck was sent out into the world with FOUR bell housing bolts, the two top ones and one on each side, and the two side ones? I didn't need the ratchet to remove them, and judging by the holes, the other's didn't just abandon ship, and on top of that, the metal MIGHT not be from this transmission, the TC? That's the original, whoever put in the transmission reused the original, so I have a big hunch on where the metal is from.

 

[Centaurus5.0]

People.

 

[RandomNerd2000]

I'm wondering if this transmission, the metal is from the original trans? There's NO metal in the TC fluid? I'd almost be tempted to get a case and pump and rebuild this, I think outside the pump it's probably still good if I'm honest. No metal in the TC was worth almost dancing around the room over because that would mean in theory the empty lines are low or have no metal too. Also, time to remove at home, with a floor jack and hand tools and an electric impact on a rusty truck was 5.5 hours, counting time spent draining fluid.

 

[Centaurus5.0]

I'd encourage you not to cut any corners and make sure you take some time to inspect and clean EVERYTHING when rebuilding/reinstalling and you shouldn't have any more issues. Makes sure also to check that all the critical tolerances are within spec if you rebuild. Do it right, do it once.

 

[shucker1]

I'd encourage you not to cut any corners and make sure you take some time to inspect and clean EVERYTHING when rebuilding/reinstalling and you shouldn't have any more issues. Makes sure also to check that all the critical tolerances are within spec if you rebuild. Do it right, do it once.

I GUESS I would have to agree with @Centaurus5.0 ..

LOL.

 

[RandomNerd2000]

Well considering I discovered that, in fact, my front differential is actually stripped, I'm dropping in a 2WD and converting the truck to a 2WD trans (have one already anyhow from the old 99).

Also @Centaurus5.0 so you mean I can't use just four bell housing bolts and have them finger tight? Darn

 

[CDW6212R]

There are special tools to rebuild any automatic, I'd suggest finding someone you can take the trans to, and have them do it. As it looks, someone skipped the cleanliness steps in some way, plus leaving bolts out. The debris from one transmission failing, does get scattered, and the coolers have tons of crevices that catch that. It comes out slowly over time, which may be what happened with that trans or the TC being reused. Do what you have to, to be sure all the bad parts get replaced, and everything is clean when it goes back together. If a new pump is installed, the front to back clearance has to be checked, the normal amount might be .050", and it doesn't take much to get that off too far. There are plastic clearance "thrust washers" of varying thickness. That is right behind the pump, the large plastic piece which is typically about .100" thick. There are about six sizes of that, and they set the total clearance of the guts.

 

[RandomNerd2000]

I probably will, I found a toasted 98 that'd be a case, depends on what I decide though once this ordeal is over since I already have a transmission for the Eddie Bauer. I think probably, this trans is actually outside of the pump functional still, it's a shame really, I think if it'd have been properly installed, it'd likely be just fine right now, but live and learn.

 

[Centaurus5.0]

There is a big learning curve when it comes to rebuilding an automatic transmission, and special tools needed like Don mentioned. I've never rebuilt one myself in all honesty. Between finding cheap low mileage units, cheap new oem units, and a buddy that charges peanuts to take one apart and put back together with all the tools and 30 years experience, it was never worth me going down that road to learn and build one myself. Like you said, if the rig doesn't owe you anything, then that transmission certainly doesn't either. Maybe disassemble it and sell some of the parts on ebay? Juss an idea.

Finger tight? No. Hand tight..Yeas.

Synthetic ATF

If you read through Fords instructions, it says to replace the OTA (Oil-to-Air) cooler in case of a rebuilt or failure. Some other good tidbits of info in there as well like... CAUTION: Transmission Fluid May Not Be Hot ??

 

[fastpakr]

I might be interested in the output shaft and 4x4 extension housing.

 

[RandomNerd2000]

I'm probably going to hang onto it for solenoids and such, since I have 2 V8s, might as well, especially since what I thought was the transfer case failing was the ring and pinion in the front taking a permanent vacation, but it didn't roll away ever, hmm, that's interesting, park was very solid with zero connection to the front wheels. Cheap units are amazing, the AWD trans, and case for my Eddie Bauer I gave $100 for out a 2000 V8 Mountaineer the guy DROVE home, he gave $500 for the truck, wanted motor for a vintage truck, sold the trans and case with 131K for $100, then wondered why I drove two HOURS to get it, like that was a bargain.

Turns out, this trans wasn't installed 2 years ago or so, it was installed in 2011, when it had 150Kish miles, so it's had 117K in theory put on it, and it was used, and most of the cracking in the bell housing before it broke was OLD, suggesting it was damaged when installed and took all this time to work that shaft in two, it's also been broken a long time, the break was old looking, vs where it slipped finally being shiny and new. I figure it was worn out anyhow, and no doubt improperly installed, the starter bolts aren't even OEM, it makes me wonder if when the truck came down south in 2011, it didn't have a transmission even in it, I've never seen such a mess of installing anything, it'll be right-er going back though, it'll have all the bell housing bolts this time, plus they'll be tight.

 

[Centaurus5.0]

The 4404's are a bit of an enigma. My understand is the viscous coupling controls the ratio at which the power is split between front and rear axles and if blown out or froze up, just changes the ratio but does not lessen the power going though it (if that makes sense). Standard is 35% front and 65% rear and it changes depending on traction and differences in wheel speed. If wheel speed is constantly different like when having different size wheels, it increases the heat and accelerates it's demise. It's like a torque converter is meant to slip a certain amount when power is applied at a certain speed and can tolerate it in short bursts but if you were to drive around with you foot on the brake all the time, it's going to generate too much heat and in turn pressure and balloon the case and blow out the internals. I've noticed when they blow out completely (leaking), it stops transmitting power to the front axle. If it seizes up, it doesn't split the power evenly or too much (or something like that??) between the front and rear creating binding in the front end like if the torque convertor clutch stuck on all the time and never releases. This is easily noticeable by an increase in steering effort. If it goes too long, it blows out the front diff and/or cv axles.

That is what I have observed anyway. I assume if a AWD has 200,000 on it, the tc is blown out and/or the front diff if it looks like the pinion seal has been leaking for a while. AWD does give me much more confidence when drive on sand or a rocky beach or though a field covered in 2 feet of snow, but I rarely find myself in those situations, not enough to warrant having it the other 99% of the time. I carry a come-along when 2 tracking and leave the snowy fields for snowmobiles.



2 hub's, 2 cv axles (each with 2 joint), front diff (axle bearings, pinion bearings, seals, d35 weak to begin with..), front driveshaft (x2 or x3 joints), the transfer case which is impossible to tell if a take out is good and new costs $800, increase chance for vibrations, increase chances for a break down when 1,000 miles for home..

VS.

2 spindles and 4 wheel bearings that seem to never go bad.


Lighter steering, better mpg, WAY less crap (ie money) to replace when something goes bad and the glory you get when making a 2wd go places angels and 4x4's fear to tread (okay, I needed to call a tow truck ONE time) make it all an easy decision for me not to have AWD/4WD.

If i did want or need a 4wd, I'd just buy the cheapest high mileage beater I could and then sell,scrap, or leave it where it breaks down. Ain't gunna spend hundreds upon thousands of dollars supping up a trail rig just to break it and beat the hell out of it when I can buy a cheap $1000 truck and not care if it even makes it out of the woods. If it lasts the summer (or even a weekend ) it would be worth it if I had the time of my life and the peace from not having to worry about what happens to it.

Keep it simple stupid is the motto. I try to keep it extra simple for obvious reasons...

::edit::

I must make a caveat here before I offend any of the modified 4x4 guys. There are no mountains in Michigan, we have sledding hills and miles and miles of forests with two tracks and beaches you can't drive on (besides Silver Lake). If I lived in the Rockies or Appalachians or in the desert somewhere, I'm sure my opinion would be a bit different.