WAR153 Shackles

[GJarrett]

I'm the guy that contacted a dozen or two companies until one of them (Warrior) took a chance and agreed to manufacture some to see if there was a market. At the time nothing at all was available to match a torsion lift except add-a-leaf, and mine already rode plenty stiff enough and I was not interested in an even more rough ride.

Warrior is a J**p aftermarket company and was the ONLY one willing to work with me and take a chance on developing an Explorer product. We owe them a debt of gratitude for that. All of the other big name aftermarket companies told me it wasn't worth the effort to mess with it.

The shackles are the result of correspondence between me and one of their machinists to design a set. I think you have to admit they are just a "little" more sturdy than the stock Ford OEM part Dead Link Removed. You are correct that the offset to the center section is designed to install the longer end up to help clear the frame during flex. At the time I was just learning about all the differences in Explorers and was reluctant to tell Warrior that they would fit all of them, so I told them I knew for sure they would fit any new model '95+ but didn't know about the early models. That's why Warrior doesn't designate them for all Explorers. We immediately learned that the shackles would fit any Explorer, but Warrior never changed the wording in their catalog.

The first run was only fifteen shackles. I guess we convinced them! Yeah, I told them they were 1/2" bolts, based on the shaft diameter of most of the bolt, so that was my screwup. I know some are concerned about that, but I used the Warrior bolts they supplied me with and have had no rattling or other problems. With that much weight on them it hasn't happened to me. I've got the first set made (gold zinc to match my '99 Eddie Bauer) and over the past year have put about 35,000 hard miles on them, oftentimes in 4lo situations, with no problems whatsoever. Unbelievably, my bushings aren't wallowed out or anything like that from the slightly undersized bolt. I will eventually replace them and put in a larger bolt, but have had no need to yet. The correct thing of course is to put in a better fitting bolt, but I believe my experience shows that the 1/2" bolt won't kill you to use it.

There is no difference between the two shackles. Only color finish.

Hope that helped with the questions.

[Edited by GJarrett on 09-24-2000 at 07:38 PM]

 

[wabbit]

so which is it Gerald?...

If they work fine, why are you planning to eventually replace them?
Guess I figured I'd rather install the right bolts the first time. One time... And that is what I have suggested previously. If someone must reply to contradict my suggestion, and in the process end up contradicting themselves, then I guess it's up to the reader to decide what would work best for them. Which really is as it should be...
I would use a 1/2" bolt in a 9/16" hole to mount my brush guard. But, I would NEVER advocate it as a hinge pin in a mechanical assembly that is a component of the suspension of a vehicle (aka-shackle bushings).

 

[Randall]

Will these shackles put the tires a little more forward in the wheel wells, or is the tire placement going to be largely unaffected?

 

[briantf]

The 1/2" bolts are too small, period

I drilled the Warriors on my wife's truck a week after we put them on - we went to Death Valley with the undersized bolts and there was VERY noticeable noise from the back when the load changed. Drilled out the shackle, put in 9/16" bolts, end of noise/movement.

There's a lot of weight/pressure back there - it doesn't make sense to me to not put cheap cheap cheap grade 8's of the correct diameter back there. However, Gerald is putting in big hours on a million other upgrades for his truck, so no point in worrying about the little stuff until the big stuff it taken care of. Probably about the time he goes for a 6" buggy spring/ARB/4.56 rearend upgrade....

The Warrior's are a very worthwhile upgrade - the factory shackles are cheap pressed sheet steel. They're very worth the money.

Example - during a stream crossing, my wife broke a bowling ball sized rock with the passenger-side Warrior. Left a small ding - if it had been a factory shackle we a) wouldn't have been crossing the streambed and b) it would have broken at least the ear off the shackle.

Randall, the front eye fixes fore/aft position of the axle - the shackle side accomodates the change in spring length during compression. The axle moves fore and aft indexed from the front, not the rear, so nothing untoward results. Also, even though the shackles are 4" longer than stock, the ride change is 1.5" - just moves the springs down a bit.

Hope this helps, I highly recommend them.

 

[GJarrett]

Sorry that didn't come across right

Warren,
I must have done a poor job of communicating what I was trying to say and I apologize. My main point was encompassed in my ending sentence "the correct thing of course is to put in a better fitting bolt, but I believe my experience shows that the 1/2" bolt won't kill you to use it" which does not disagree with what you were saying. You question why I said I may eventually replace them, and yet ignored the second half of that very same sentence I wrote ("I will eventually replace them and put in a larger bolt, but have had no need to yet"). They have worked fine so far.

You're right of course. I wasn't contradicting either you or myself; I just didn't want anyone that had already used the 1/2" bolts to think that they immediately needed to replace them for fear of safety. Now that we know it should be 9/16", if you have not installed them yet, then the right thing to do is change out to 9/16". If I were buying a set now, that is what I would do. The 1/2" bolts may be "too small, period" as Brian has noted but they still managed to work well enough to give me enough confidence to post my previous reply so that those who did have them wouldn't feel like they had to take time off of work tomorrow to fix a fatal design flaw, or park their Explorer in the garage for the next month and spend money on a rental car until they get around to fixing it. I am unaware of any instances of the grade 8 1/2" Warrior bolts failing in use per your concerns, though I may be wrong.

Mine were ALREADY on, which is why I didn't "change them in the first place" (first place for me was over a year ago) and I've been busy with a body lift not only for my own vehicle but I've also been helping on several other people's Explorer projects too. I've also got another life that includes three jobs and a mother that has spent all summer in a hospital (mostly in intensive care) and trying to keep track of my precious eight year old son that my ex-wife has moved across four states in one year.

I've been too busy to prioritize changing my shackle bolts out when they have served me well so far. A new member (yea! and welcome!) that lives locally just emailed me and wants me to help him install his new lift. And I'm doing the Clayton trail run next weekend, the weekend after that is my mom's coming home party from the hospital, the weekend after that is a camping trip, then the weekend after that is a dove hunt, then a church retreat, then the weekend after that I am flying my eight year old son in from North Carolina to visit. And oh yeah, I can't ignore my three jobs and volunteer time responsibilites at church and community service projects.

With the press of time to get ready for the Colorado CCR2000 trip, I made the personal decision that spending what limited time I did have available was better spent raising my body & running boards another inch out of harm's way on the trail than to spend the time fixing a shackle bolt that had already been working for me for a whole year, including several hard wheeling trips to Moab and other areas. I can assure you that I would never have ran Lion's Back in Moab unless I had already gained the utmost confidence in the ability of my entire vehicle (including shackles) through previous usage on several hard trails and many miles of wear. Screw up on Lion's Back, and you die.

The next thing I am going to do in a month or so after I earn some more money is install Edelbrock IAS shocks since my old shocks are shot now. While I am doing that, I am going to put the larger bolts in the shackles and make them right. I thank you guys for looking closer at the components and educating me on what I need to do and I am grateful for that. I am waiting until next month because I am also designing a small Moab Roller to "accessorize" the shackles that will only roll forward over an obstacle but still dig in if my vehicle starts to slip backwards. These will have to be installed at the same time I replace the bolts, and affect the length of the bolts I use. I guess my new idea is also a controversial mod so that's all I'll say about that, but at least when I hit those boulders with my shackle I'll glide over them instead of breaking through them.

I didn't mean to come across as disagreeing with you to say that changing to 9/16" bolts shouldn't be done; or as contradicting myself by saying that I wanted to also change them: I was only saying that for me it has still worked well for a long time and distance with the 1/2" bolts.

At the time they came out, we were doing what we could with what we knew when there was nothing else out there to work with. There are several members of this board that bought out the first run of shackles using the supplied bolts before we knew better. Even though it was incorrect noone has experience a failure from it. Now that we know better, they do need to be changed.

I view my small part in this little bit of Explorer history trivia as merely being the one that was tenacious enough to pester enough companies to finally get one to produce a "beta version" of a first model of the product. I knew a lot less about my Explorer in July of 1999 when these were being designed than you guys know today. Now that you guys with more knowledge have had a chance to test and improve on what I could get done, we will all have a better product as a result. I view this as a natural progression of product quality as time and usage tests the application of an Explorer shackle. There was no concept of that one year ago, because it didn't exist yet.

I hope I stated that better this time. You're making a valid point that needs to be heeded for new shackle installations, and for those with original installations to start think about correcting. The time has come for people to ignore me and instead to take advantage of the knowledge of your further research and development that I originally goofed on pertaining to one of the aspects of the design of the shackle. That's one of the strengths of this board; that the collective knowledge of our membership benefits the whole of each of us individually by getting the market to offer us products we need even though we aren't driving J**ps.

I need to go on a "posting diet". I've evidently come across as insulting or disagreeing to others on several of my posts lately and I really don't mean to. Anytime I feel a need to come back to a thread like this and spend another half hour trying to clear up what I was trying to say, it means I must not be able to say it well in the first place. I'll bow out of this thread now also, before I word something else in a way that digs myself into a deeper hole.

PS / Concerning the length and the mention of a four inch longer shackle. The Warrior shackle is 8.5" long and the vast majority of Explorer shackles are 5.5" long. Divide the three inch difference by two and you get your approximate lift (settling of springs/etc will slightly change or lessen the lift). So they were designed to give most of us a 1.5" lift. I wanted a 9" shackle because my particular Eddie Bauer had a rare set of 6" shackles. So I only got 1.25" lift out of mine. In very rare circumstances -- that usually seem to pertain to certain Sport models -- the OEM shackle length was less than 5", so a very few of you will be able to get a 2" lift out of the shackles. One reason that Warrior decided not to go with a 9" shackle was because of those rare shorter Ford shackles, and a five inch difference in shackle length on a vehicle of our size and weight was considered going just a little too far. I agreed with Warrior and we left it at 8.5 inches.

[Edited by GJarrett on 09-25-2000 at 05:44 AM]

 

[jwade]

Originally posted by Mudd*****
whats the difference, quality or otherwise, between the 'gun metal' and the gold zinc versions?

The only difference is color I assure you. I just liked the grey ones better. You know, as soon as I got them in, I thought to myself that I could have had my steel fabricator produce a couple of these and see how they did. Seems like these things are hot items right now and relatively simple to produce. I would have prefered them to be welded all the way around though. That would make them water tight. I'm talking about the connection where the two flanges come together. There is a small gap that will over time, become a water trap. Could be extremely bad in salt prone areas. Don't ask me why I analyze them that much, It's just my job to detail buildings so they don't leak. How the profession of architecture can send your mind out on a limb. Overall, I like them very much.

 

[BlueDogBandit]

Don't Forget

Not to beat a dead horse, but now that we are talking about bolts again, keep this in mind. Warrior Products has changed the bolt size and holes in for the shackles. If you recently ordered shackles, make sure you measure the bolts and holes before spending the extra cash on new ones. I know that a lot of guys are buying their shackles through J.C. Whitney, and I'm not sure what kind of stock they purchased, so if you get your shackles from them, they may still have the smaller bolts. Hope this helps saves some people a couple of pennies. Happy Explor'n!

 

[jgriffin]

Is 8.5 inches all the longer the shackles can be or could I build some that were 2 inches longer for another inch in the back to even it out a little better.

 

[jwade]

Originally posted by jgriffin
Is 8.5 inches all the longer the shackles can be or could I build some that were 2 inches longer for another inch in the back to even it out a little better.

I don't see why not? I wouldn't go nuts or anything though. Just remember that the longer you make the plate steel from the center, you are increasing the force transmitted on it. In other words, if you went too long with it, and you are out in the woods one day and land really hard, you could potentially bend it in an absolute worst case scenario. If you have some built, extend the area of the center section of the shackle. This will compensate for the increased bending moment on the shackle itself. Just curious, but are you having problems clearing things or are you to close for comfort when you are at maximum compression?

Jon Clark
poor architect intern
1996 XLT 4x4
torsion, shackles,
31x10.50's BF's KO's (love em)

 

[leebo]

I'm thinking you're asking for trouble. You're putting all the weight of your truck onto these two shackles. It more you lift them the greater the amount of force is being put on them. If you do though I would also weld a "support" bracket like warrior did through the middle to help beef them up.

 

[BlueDogBandit]

don't forget!

Don't forget that you are messing with ground clearence back there. The longer they are, the longer they are going to drop down in front of the rear bumbper. If you do any climbing they are going to get in the way a lot. Already a concern with extended shackles, making them even longer would be trouble. Just my opinion though.

 

[BlueDogBandit]

How about?

If you are really interested in fabricating something to give you rear end lift, why don't you make a plate to go in between the front leaf spring mount and the frame. Make it about 1 1/2" thick. That would give you about another 3/4 inch lift and correct the angle from the WP shackles. Food for thought.

 

[jgriffin]

I might take a look at the front mounts and see what I come up with. I have no problem with clearance, but I want a little more fenderwell clearance in the back to match the front. And it might add a little more travel with longer shocks.

 

[wabbit]

Aw shucks Gerald, I'm not offended. I just had a different opinion...

And I'm just the type to let you know.
:big 'ol smiley that bounces up and down:
I guess one of the drawbacks of typing correspondence on the net is the absence of vocal inflection that conversation provides. The difference between a debate and an argument can be hard to discern. I don't take anything personal when it comes to deliberating opinions that differ. In fact, I find it to be very productive in generating new information and ideas. Really, if we all agreed on everything there wouldn't be much left to learn.
(ie: The world is flat, so shut up and stop arguing with me about it!!)
I'm not especially thankful to Warrior Products for making Explorer shackles. They are in business and do this to make a profit and that's OK. However, I would like to extend a "Thank You" to you Gerald, for leading them to develop the product.
And, regarding the bolts, I'm hoping any reader of this thread has been presented with enough info to make an informed descision. And that is the meat 'n potatoes of a site like this. There is no liability, just info and opinions that are not intended to be catergorized as right or wrong.
Yer buddy,
Warren

 

[Five]

Metric Bolts

I can see where the rep was coming from when he mentioned that they were unable to procure the properly sized metric bolt.
I believe that this may be one of 2 things:
There is no Home Depot near them.
They lost their yellow pages (or someone stole the "Hardware" section out of the one in the bathroom)

K

 

[jgriffin]

Hey K, how do you like your borla? How does it make your truck sound? I am wanting to get one, but I like to know if it is worth the money.

 

[GJarrett]

About those shackle bolt sizes.....

Time for me to reopen a can of worms so everyone re-argue their point if they wish to!

Here me out please.
Today I believe I have found out why my 1/2" shackle bolts haven't given me any trouble through all of these miles and trail obstacles.

It is because (insert disclaimer here: for my vehicle at least) 1/2" is the correct size. I didn't screw up after all. I got my old bolt out to take to a metric bolt supply house to duplicate with longer ones for me to install on my Warriors and took a close second look at it. After doing so, I'm convinced I can keep my 1/2" bolts in.

My original OEM shackle bolt is .500 across the entire length, except for a 9/16" length at the first that mikes out at .545" (14mm?) and the threads which mike the same .545. The 9/16" everyone is replacing these with would be .562 which is even larger than the short thickest part of the original bolt. The .545 threads don't start until they are out of the other end of the bushing. Since in the original configuration the OEM bolt was inserted through the shackle before entering the bushing, at least 1/16" was taken up doing that, so across the entire length of the bushing less than 1/2" of the bolt that actually resided in the bushing was larger than .500". Why that is who knows, oh well.

But the point is (for my vehicle) the correct bolt diameter seems to be in fact .500". Maybe a weak point could be made for .545 for a short distance on the inside beginning of the bushing where the upper thicker portion of the OEM bolt went it, but obviously .562 is not needed at all and is in fact oversize.

I am keeping my 1/2" bolts after all. Like I said, I've already tested them in fairly rough circumstances; and it appears that is the size mine is supposed to use anyway. If your applications are different then we are finding out yet another difference between model years and types, similar to when we found out all Explorers didn't come with 5.5" shackles (which we all originally believed) when I started researching to get some made and found out I had 6" and some had less than 5".

We continue to learn. I'd like some of you who went to 9/16" to check your OEM bolt and see if you did in fact have almost all of your bushings (except for that small thicker section) resting on .500" bolts after all.

I'm posting this with a big ol' smilie. This isn't meant to discredit anything said; I'd just like to learn for sure about this. It is clear to me that my vehicle can keep the 1/2" bolts.

[Edited by GJarrett on 10-01-2000 at 02:58 PM]

 

[Paul Gagnon]

Gerald the correct bolt is 9/16" Ford uses a tapered bolt that is 1/2" in the centre but the ends that carry the load are 9/16". If a bolt does not fit properly it may fail because stress is being put on it that it is not designed to handle.

 

[GJarrett]

So the entire inside of the bushing is not designed to carry the weight burden; only the outside edges??? It would make more sense that the entire 2.5" inside length would share in the distribution of the load. I am confused (confusion is sometimes a natural state for me).

 

[Rick]

It seems to me that Ford designed the bolt this way to keep it from binding in the metal sleeve within the bushing. As Paul stated the outer diameter is larger than the diameter which passes through the sleeve. This would mean that the shackle itself is being used as a bushing where the large diameter shank meets the hole in the shackle. I just replaced my shackles last week and it was obvious that the greatest wear on the bolts were on the portions of the bolt with the largest diameter. The portion of the bolt which is within the sleeve had no wear at all.