Water pump failure leads to dead engine

[jade97]

Well, it looks like we are going to pull the trigger on a 2018 Edge SEL (waiting for it to be transferred).

My guy at the dealership said he has heard of the pump failing and taking out the engine, but this is his first experience seeing it. If that helps.

 

[Drewmcg]

They upgraded the water pump somewhat in MY2010 or MY2011 (the newer one has two rows of teeth, and a double timing chain to engage). I'm not aware whether that modification improved reliability significantly, but hopefully so--since the risk is still there contaminated oil if water pump leak, trashing crank bearings, etc.). You might consider an extended warranty if you plan to keep this car for several years. And check the coolant level religiously after about 40k miles or so.... Also, park in clean pavement or garage floor, and check carefully for coolant on the pavement/floor after you pull away in the morning (there's a weep hole for coolant to escape, which is a warning sign).

BTW, an owner of a 2008 or other pre-modified version reported ordering the water pump, chain, and other timing components from after the re-design, and that he had success installing them, thereby gaining the benefit of the re-designed part. Trick is to fix this before substantial engine damage, which is hard to do after substantial pump failure, since it does not take tons of coolant in the oil--or many days of driving--to ruin the lubrocity of the oil and the integrity of the engine.

 

[‘14ExSport]

Hi,
How did you know there was a coolant leak? Did it leak out externally and visible on the ground? Thanks. Glad to hear that you got the ESP for another 4 years. I just recently got another 3 our 13 Sport also.

Sorry for the delayed response. I didn’t realize I had been signed out and wasn’t getting updates.

Anyway, yes it started as a tiny drop of orange fluid on the floor of the garage. I took it to the dealer and all they said was timing chain cover oil leak (which was odd because I know it was not engine oil). Got the car back and a few weeks later more orange fluid on the ground. Took it to dealer and they confirmed coolant but I would have to bring back for diagnosis of the source because they were busy. More fluid leaked on ground and eventually heater stopped working (not enough coolant for heater core). I topped off the coolant ($30 a quart for specialty orange coolant!) only for it to gush out days later making it completely undrivable. Took it to dealer immediately and the rest is history!


On a side not, they STILL have my car. 3 weeks in now. Is this normal for a ford warranty repair to take so long?

 

[Tsuga]

Sorry for the delayed response. I didn’t realize I had been signed out and wasn’t getting updates.

Anyway, yes it started as a tiny drop of orange fluid on the floor of the garage. I took it to the dealer and all they said was timing chain cover oil leak (which was odd because I know it was not engine oil). Got the car back and a few weeks later more orange fluid on the ground. Took it to dealer and they confirmed coolant but I would have to bring back for diagnosis of the source because they were busy. More fluid leaked on ground and eventually heater stopped working (not enough coolant for heater core). I topped off the coolant ($30 a quart for specialty orange coolant!) only for it to gush out days later making it completely undrivable. Took it to dealer immediately and the rest is history!


On a side not, they STILL have my car. 3 weeks in now. Is this normal for a ford warranty repair to take so long?

Thanks for the response. As for the repair, I had mine in at the dealer to have the air conditioning lines replace due to corrosion last summer and it took them 10 days due to shipping from from the US.

 

[waltchan]

This has been a very tough communication to debate on who is to blame here and the problems. Here are the REAL facts and stories from Ford. Before 2007, there was the 3.0L V6 Duratec. This was the most powerful and last Ford FWD transverse-engine with external belt-driven water pump, and it was last installed in 2012 Fusion and Escape. This engine had won numerous awards on reliability, and during 2007-2009, Ford Fusion V6 was ALWAYS rated more-reliable than Toyota Camry and Honda Accord by Consumer Reports, which shocked the auto industry at one time. Consumer Reports praised Ford as the only Detroit automaker with "world-class reliability" that almost all vehicles (thanks to the Duratec engines) were just as reliable as any Toyota and Honda vehicles.

Consumer Reports 2009 Annual Car Reliability Survey – Who’s up and who’s down

Then 3.5L came out in 2007 to replace 3.0L for more power, and 3.7L in 2008 to replace old 4.2L OHV. Both were based on 3.0L's engine-block design. These new engines were jointly-designed with Mazda together in Japan. I'm not sure at all and still investigating, but the internal water pump design (which later ends up disastrous) could be a Japanese-design from Mazda. Mazda was the first to release 3.5L in 2007 CX-9 on March 2006 launch-date, five months earlier than Ford. Same internal water pump design, could be Japanese. Mazda of Japan believed that if Ford can find and install a lifetime-warranty internal water pump driven by timing chain, these new Duratec V6s are technically bulletproof and reliable for up to 300,000 miles (as well as up to 1,000,000 quality-testing miles with original water pump). Unfortunately, Ford failed to comply Mazda's Japan technical requirements, skimped on parts quality, and then the water pumps failed as low as 50,000 miles. The Mazda CX-9s built in Japan with same 3.7L engine lasted a little longer for up to 200,000 miles. I do understand that internal water pump is never a smart idea since it's a wear and tear part, and maybe the Japanese engineers at Mazda headquarter regretted later on. But Mazda Japan prefers to blame on Ford instead for skimping on parts quality.

Despite all the negative reviews you read, these Ford Duratec V6 engines do have an excellent reputation on reliability if designed everything correctly from scratch. When they run, Consumer Reports still rates Ford Duratec V6s more-reliable than General Motor's High Feature V6 and Chrysler's Pentastar V6 (see Engine Major, nearly all straight green dots very close to Toyota) in latest April 2018 magazine, assuming the original water pump hasn't failed yet. Either Ford or Mazda (I don't know who to blame) accidentally missed one part of design here that screwed us all up. I'll let you debate...

If Ford sticks only to Duratec engines (and Ecoboost turbos don't exist yet), and all use belt-driven water pumps, Ford's original-root from 2008 being Detroit's most-reliable automaker still exists 10 years later today in some areas (Ford Fusion & Escape w/ 2.5L).

 

[sheltonfilms]

Could be a quality issue in the water pumps from their water pump supplier. Could be the sourcing of bearings or seals contained in the water pump. The person that could answer this question is the Supplier Quality Engineer at the Lima Plant in Ohio.

From my experience in automotive. If you so much as got 3 issues in the field under warranty, (maybe less depending on when it is in relation to the life of the vehicle, first 100 days since 1st model is sold are monitored extremely carefully) Ford will ask for parts back for root cause analysis.

What ever the root cause is, there is a CPK value for each process in making this water pump. Maybe the value satisfies Ford's quality requirements and they are accepting the risk.

Also there is an FMEA for this failure somewhere.

They obviously recognized their shortcuts from the first generation of the water pump/timing chain design and so they did a major change to it in 2012. This is big money for Ford. Changing a pulley sprocket design and timing chain is not cheap. Talking a million if not more in tooling changes at the supplier that ford has to pay for since it is a deviation from the original design.

I'm thinking about getting rid of my Explorer for this potential defect. Love everything about it but if I don't have any comforting statistics then I'm just gonna assume it's gonna happen in the near future.

 

[peterk9]

A few posts here mentioned that the internal water pump design was a result of the transverse mounted engine and lack of space. I'd be interested to see the engine design in the new 2020 Explorer now that it may have RWD.

Peter

 

[blwnsmoke]

A few posts here mentioned that the internal water pump design was a result of the transverse mounted engine and lack of space. I'd be interested to see the engine design in the new 2020 Explorer now that it may have RWD.

Peter

It will be longitudinal from what I'm rd and expect the 3.3 to be in it.

 

[waltchan]

I'd be interested to see the engine design in the new 2020 Explorer now that it may have RWD.

Yes, the all-new 2020 Ford Explorer will move to RWD and may use 3.3L V6 (Duratec 33) found in 2018 F-150. Should be a lot more-reliable. 3.3L is based on 3.5L, and then 3.0L originally. But Ford, most likely, is leaning towards 2.3L I4 Ecoboost standard.

 

[honky]

From past experience, I would never buy from a private party with no transferable Extended Warranty. My policy is to drive them off the lot and turn them in to the junk yard 15 to 20 years later when the $1,000 repair to a vehicle worth $400 might not be the reasonable thing to do for some folks--it might be ok for others, (and, if it's all you can do, it just might be the right move to make, who knows). Buying and extended warranty on any vehicle that you intend to keep is a good idea in my thinking as a failure in any of that touch screen stuff that I have--could cost you thousands--and for what? My advice is to buy from a dealer. All of them will work with buyers regardless of their financial situation.

 

[Dan92020]

Just thought I would add my +1 as another owner who had an engine failure due to the faulty water pump issue. 2011 explorer with 108K miles. Wound up having to buy an 2018 Explorer (different engine this time). Not surprisingly, not a lot of trade-in value when you have a engine that is useful only as a paperweight.

 

[peterk9]

Just thought I would add my +1 as another owner who had an engine failure due to the faulty water pump issue. 2011 explorer with 108K miles. Wound up having to buy an 2018 Explorer (different engine this time). Not surprisingly, not a lot of trade-in value when you have a engine that is useful only as a paperweight.

Welcome to the Forum Dan.

Peter

 

[ERUSH97XLT]

This is a fantastic discussion.

Wanted to chime in on this briefly as I now have 85k miles on my '13. I'm trying to avoid the paranoia of a sudden engine failure by taking proactive steps for piece of mind.

Has anyone else caught early failure from a blackstone UOA analysis? Here's one of Brian's latest videos addressing the issue where a customer asked to evaluate the water pump based on UOA data.

 

[Tsuga]

Hi,
Does anyone know what year they beefed up the timing chain and the water pump sprocket? Thanks

 

[ocracokeBound]

Shelton, if they did an update in 2012, is the 2013 model year that bad?

 

[runningman42818]

I have the 2011 Lincoln MKX. Last week, my engine stalled with no warning while driving. Diagnosis-- blown head gasket due to overheating, due to coolant leaking into the engine from a failed water pump. There was no overheating indicated. It was a dream to drive while it lasted. I've never had a vehicle cost me this much money in service and repairs. Mileage at 111k. I filed complaints with nhtsa.gov and BBB Auto line and Lincoln manufacturer customer service phone number from inside the owner's manual. I also did a phone consultation with a large law firm in my city to see if that was something they might take on. They stated they could not help me with this matter.

 

[peterk9]

I have the 2011 Lincoln MKX. Last week, my engine stalled with no warning while driving. Diagnosis-- blown head gasket due to overheating, due to coolant leaking into the engine from a failed water pump. There was no overheating indicated. It was a dream to drive while it lasted. I've never had a vehicle cost me this much money in service and repairs. Mileage at 111k. I filed complaints with nhtsa.gov and BBB Auto line and Lincoln manufacturer customer service phone number from inside the owner's manual. I also did a phone consultation with a large law firm in my city to see if that was something they might take on. They stated they could not help me with this matter.

Welcome to the Forum.
The 2020 Explorer is going to change to the longitudinal engine so hopefully the water pump will be external. I don't know about the 2019 Nautilus (MKX) but I'm guessing it will likely retain the transverse engine. Hope I'm wrong.

Peter

 

[waltchan]

I don't know about the 2019 Nautilus (MKX) but I'm guessing it will likely retain the transverse engine. Hope I'm wrong.

Peter

2019 Lincoln Nautilus will be switching to 2.0L I4 turbo (replacing 3.7L V6 from 2018 MKX), so it will no longer have any water pump issue. Only 3.5L and 3.7L V6 transverse are affected (all years).

 

[peterk9]

2019 Lincoln Nautilus will be switching to 2.0L I4 turbo (replacing 3.7L V6 from 2018 MKX), so it will no longer have any water pump issue. Only 3.5L and 3.7L V6 transverse are affected (all years).

Also read this. For those in need of extra power, a 2.7-liter, twin-turbocharged V-6 pumps out 335 hp and 380 lb-ft of torque. Each engine works alongside an eight-speed automatic transmission and features stop-start technology as standard.
2019 Lincoln Nautilus Review, Ratings, Specs, Prices, and Photos

Peter

 

[waltchan]

2.7L V6 twin-turbo is not affected with water pump issue, but oil pan leak seems to be more common problem than 3.7L water pump.

2.7 Leaking Oil Pan Update - Ford F150 Forum - Community of Ford Truck Fans