Ouick Oil Question

[XLT Xtreme]

Quick question guys. I have hered and been told that high mileage vehicles should use Mobil 1 10w 30 (if running syn.). Newer ones run 5w 30. Now my question is from what knowledge I have of oil wich I may find out is not enough. The 5 or the first number states the weight of the oil cold and the second is the weight of the oil at running temp. What would the difference be in a high milage or not if the oil weight is only changed when the truck or car is cold. When it is at running temp the weight of the oil is still the same no matter 10w30 or 5w30. Help me out, am I looking at this all wrong or what?

Mike

 

[Kadarom Douhrek]

Well, for one thing the 10W-30 actually says "Higher-Mileage Vehicle Formula" on it and says it has a little different additives.

 

[dogfriend]

I'm looking at my Marks Handbook for Mechanical Engineers....

The viscosity is determined by an Society of Automotive Engineers test (SAE J300)

The second number (ie 30) is determined by measuring visoscity at 100 deg C. For 30 the viscosity can be between 9.3 and 12.5 cSt.

The first number is the winter rating (ie 5W or 10W). For 5W, the max viscosity is 3500 cP (diff units) at -25 deg C. For 10W, the max viscosity is 3500 cP at -20 deg C.

So for SAE 5W/ 30, the oil has the same viscosity at -25 deg C as the 10W/30 oil has at -20 deg C. For both oils, the 100 deg C viscosity must be between 9.3 and 12.5 cSt. So they can have different viscosity at 100 deg C, but must be within given range.

In reality, the 5W/30 is probably a little thinner at 100 deg C, but not much. Is this a problem for higher mileage vehicle? Probably depends upon overall engine condition, not necessarily mileage. But I would research it more to see if there is justification for this assertion that 10W/30 is better. My opinion is to go by Ford recommended viscosity rather than heresay.

 

[gururise]

Not to start another oil war, but I've always used 10w30 in my previous vehicles because I heard that oils that have a larger range (ie 5w30) require more binders and additives to provide the larger viscosity range.

The additional amount of additive and binders are just one more thing that can break down and cause problems with your engine... Now whether this is true or not, I do not know. I will be using the recommended 5w30 in my new X.

Check out the Oil FAQ: Oil Faq

It seems to support the conclusion that the bigger the range in a multi-viscosity oil, the more additives and binders are required to support that range, thus more engine deposits!

Gururise

 

[dogfriend]

Originally posted by gururise
Not to start another oil war,

It seems to support the conclusion that the bigger the range in a multi-viscosity oil, the more additives and binders are required to support that range, thus more engine deposits!

Gururise

Please don't start another oil war

I agree with the statement you made, but this is more of an issue with dino oil because they must add more polymer material as a viscosity improver. This is not as big of an issue with syn oil because they typically add very little or no polymer material to get the same viscosity index.(in fact, they mention in the FAQ that 5W/30 Mobil 1 doesnt use any vi material) One of the many advantages of syn oil.

Part of the Oil Faq talks about the importance of the proper viscosity for the engine. The engine manufacturers determine this through testing. This is why I would stick with the recommendation from the manufacturer (Ford).

 

[XLT Xtreme]

Did not intend to start another oil war was just curious on the subject because I read something on the topic in another forum I belong to. BTW Thanks for all the answers.

 

[MONMIX]

Ya know , I never knew what the numbers ment.
Thanks guys.

 

[#1Aggie]

Below is a website to the best oil/lubrication site on the web. There is a lot of purely technical information on lubrication without all of the Hype from different oil manufacturers.

There is a whole section on used oil analysis and virgin oil analysis that will help you make the right decision.

I have been on that board for many months and have learned tons. I go by Kevin in Texas there.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi


As as the question as to what oil to use. We could truly start WWIII on that subject. But some things to consider.

Most of the dino oils now carry an API SL rating that means that the base oil must be of a lot higher quality than the old oils and have the right additive packages to minimize deposits, handle high heat and shear loads. Furthermore, most of the new dino's can go 4-5K between oil changes without any problems. The used oil analysis prove it so.

The biggest challenge is to get the old school 3K oil change must out of everybody's head. It does not apply anymore. Just marketing hype to sell more oil.

As far as synthetics, Mobil 1 is about the last 100% PAO oil left. Castrol, Pennzoil, Valvoline, RP and even Amsoil 7500XL all market their synthetics as full synthetics but in reality they are just Group 3 hydrocracked oils. Mobil 1 is a group 4 synthetic oil. The courts said that was OK when Mobil sued Castrol over their Syntec brand.

As far as weights. From the used oil analysis that I have seen, the 5-30's of M1 and others have a tendency to shear over tiime to a 5-20 oil. Several UOA's have shown viscosities in the 8.8-9.0 range. However with 10W30's seem to hold the 30w viscosity better.

Just a little note about the new Mobil 1 Supersyn. It is really a very thick package that has to have thinners added to make it act like a 10 ot 5 w oil. And FWIW, the UOA have been very impressive with the new M1 oils.

Depending on where you live will determine if you need a 5w30 or 10W30. Several people on the oil board use 5w or 0w in the winter and 10w in the summer.

I hope this helps!

 

[aldive]

Originally posted by #1Aggie
As far as synthetics, Mobil 1 is about the last 100% PAO oil left. Castrol, Pennzoil, Valvoline, RP and even Amsoil 7500XL all market their synthetics as full synthetics but in reality they are just Group 3 hydrocracked oils. Mobil 1 is a group 4 synthetic oil. The courts said that was OK when Mobil sued Castrol over their Syntec brand.

As far as weights. From the used oil analysis that I have seen, the 5-30's of M1 and others have a tendency to shear over tiime to a 5-20 oil. Several UOA's have shown viscosities in the 8.8-9.0 range. However with 10W30's seem to hold the 30w viscosity better.

Please explain this statement.

 

[#1Aggie]

Originally posted by aldive


Please explain this statement.

Without going into a huge lecture on oils, I will try to give a brief explanation of my statements.

There are currently 4 major categories of base oils.

Group 1: Stuff you dad used.
Group 2 & 2+: a higher refined oil that has a lot of the waxes and sludge forming materials removed.
Group 3: Hydrocracked oils. These are oil that have been heavily refined to the point that they are extremely pure.
Group 4: Synthetic (Man made) oils. PAO, Esters and others syn compounds.


When Castrol came out with their Syntec, they claimed that it was 100% synthetic, but Mobil said that since it was really just hydrcracked dino oil that it was not truly synthetic. However, the courts agreed with Castrol and allowed them to continue to market it as 100% sythetic.

Well, since the Group 3 oils are cheaper to make, a lot of oil companies like the one I mentioned above have switched to the group 3's instead of staying with the group 4's in order to be more profitable. Like I said, even Amsoil did it with their 7500 XL. You can check out their FAQ section and they even talk about it there.


As far as the statement about the 5W-30's thinning out. That statement is based on the UOA's that I have seen.
The biggest culprit of this was the old M1 Tri-syn 5W-30.

The new M1 Supersyn package is actually a very viscous material that needs thinners to drop its viscosity at lower temps.

 

[dogfriend]

Oh no!

An oil war is breaking out! Run!

Incoming !

I've been hit! Run! Save yourself before its too late!

 

[grtexplorer]

I hope I'm not contributing to a potential oil war but have recently purchased a '99 XLT, 4X4, V-6 SOHC w/15k miles. The previous owner had used regular oil. I'm thinking about chaging to Mobil 1 but have heard that it's not a good idea on vehicles that did not start their lives using it because you run the risk of leaking seals or something. Any truth to this? Am I safe to switch to synthetic?

 

[aldive]

Originally posted by grtexplorer
I'm thinking about chaging to Mobil 1 but have heard that it's not a good idea on vehicles that did not start their lives using it because you run the risk of leaking seals or something. Any truth to this? Am I safe to switch to synthetic?

Yes its safe and a great idea to switch to synthetic.

 

[dogfriend]

Originally posted by grtexplorer
I hope I'm not contributing to a potential oil war but have recently purchased a '99 XLT, 4X4, V-6 SOHC w/15k miles. The previous owner had used regular oil. I'm thinking about chaging to Mobil 1 but have heard that it's not a good idea on vehicles that did not start their lives using it because you run the risk of leaking seals or something. Any truth to this? Am I safe to switch to synthetic?

I switched at 36K when I bought the explorer. I now have 80K, no oil leaks yet.

Also, check this thread Dead Link Removed


It was just a flesh wound, I think I'm going to make it.

 

[grtexplorer]

great!! I'll change it out this weekend - and order a KKM!

 

[dogfriend]

Originally posted by #1Aggie

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi






I hope this helps!

This is a pretty cool site if you are an oil geek (I mean that in the best possible way)

Thanks for the link.

 

[grtexplorer]

thanks dogfriend! That oil website is great - I've spent hours already reading as much as I could.

 

[#1Aggie]

Originally posted by grtexplorer
thanks dogfriend! That oil website is great - I've spent hours already reading as much as I could.

I found the website about a year ago and have participated on it as Kevin in Texas. It is by far the best website for oil/lube that I have found. It is great info without all of the marketing hype. That is why I posted the link here above so that everybody can make an educated decision on which oil to use.

The administrator is Bob and he really knows his stuff. The most technical guy is Molakule. You can learn a lot from him.


Glad you like it!

 

[dogfriend]

Originally posted by #1Aggie



The most technical guy is Molakule. You can learn a lot from him.


Glad you like it!

I'm pretty sure that Molakule is an Organic Chemist. Ive already posted over there on a thread discussing safety issues with synthetic oil.

I searched for some info on Valvoline Synpower, cause thats what Ive been using. It seems like people think its ok, but think it is overpriced for what it is. Also, some people seem to avoid Valvoline because they are perceived to be untrustworthy with regard to their advertising. Does this seem correct, or have you seen some other info that would contradict this?

 

[aldive]

Thanks for posting that site' extremely informative.